Mage Balance

[Delia]

Mages are cool and fun but also terribly out of balance and horribly overpowered at higher levels. Personally I have always felt somewhat uncomfortable with how easy it is to just delete someone. I know it is very easy at high fighter levels too but that is another discussion. I will list some issues and expand on them later on. Feel free to start some civil discussion if you wish.

- Instant casts should go and remain in a very limited thematic form only.
- Free casting should be more limited.
- Many individual spells need a lookover.
- Non-mages need viable counters against magic.
- Protecting against magic damage is too rare.
- Many spells need a way to be resisted.
- More dependency on researched mantras

One of the original keywords was a prepared mage in which the system currently fails. Even if that list seems a bit daunting, I know, this should be a give and take and not just a straight nerf. I will also attend to that side of the matter a bit later.

INSTANT CASTS

Instant casts are completely against the prepared mage paradigm and offer a highly skilled mage to handwave anyone and set the terms of the fight. Instant darkness, instant paralyse, instant teleportation, instant whatever you could think of. It literally just takes the time it takes to touch your keyboard. On paper it sounds fun and cool but in a computer game environment it just starts chafing against the rest of the game. There is an option to cast fast and there are options for quick magic in mage staves and wands. Instant casts ruin that balance too. Why would you research to use a wand for quick magic if you can just instant cast? In a good game environment you have different tools for different jobs.

The ability to "say" magic words could be preserved but a hardcoded speedlimit should be imposed. If you hit that, then wham-bam-fizzle! A magic circle could be used to make a room into a "sanctum" as in some rpgs with mages in them. In this sanctum room, while inside the circle, the mage could access some instant cast capability depending on the circle quality. This way the fun idea could be preserved and the ability of mages to be unstoppable combat monsters would be limited.

FREE MAGIC & MANTRAS

When a mage reaches high skills the dependency for mantras(researched spells)diminishes greatly to the point it starts to feel like a debug feature and it is wonderful for that purpose! It is just that it starts to detach a mage from the meat of the system which are researched mantras and does very little to distinguish one mage from the other. The ability to free cast should remain very low at all times unless you have a similar mantra researched, you use magic that falls within your specialization or are standing within a magic circle which would give you a bonus according to the circle. One another idea would be to make free casting very slow which could be tied to the other stuff mentioned here.

Given the amount of free magic would be reduced, the amount of mantras available for the mage should be increased accordingly. However, I feel that there should be some changes mantras in general. Lower level mantras should be faster to research, specialization should be a learning bonus and the general speed should also scale with your skills(I am not sure if this is the case). Public mantras should be removed and every mage, big and small, would learn first spells from a master, be it a PC or an NPC. NPC masters would have a teachable mantra list according to who they are(Guild, alchemist, scribe). When a mage specializes you would get specialization mantras. This would replace the currently free fire spells with spells of appropriate element. Finally a mage master would have access to a "guild list" which would contain administrative guild functionality spells for free. There is a good IC reasoning for this too. Big unwieldy spells like obelisks and such could be placed there.

One thing that makes me think with mantras is that a lv1 spell has the same cost as a lv7 spell. It might be a good idea to tweak the system so that bigger, more powerful spells cost more to learn. This naturally only would work if amount of mantra slots are increased appropriately but in my eyes this idea would have merit. Are you a bit of a do it all mage with a smaller spell for virtually every occasion(current free magic)? Or do you focus on flaunting your great powers but sacrifice versatility for it?

SCALING

Generally I feel that mana costs should be lower. A low level spell should have a cost that feels less than a high level spell. This effect should increase with high skill. One of the mage grievances is the downtime spent meditation for mana. Constant need for recovery also disrupts teaming sessions. If a mage could use lower power spells much more often in combat it would work with the usual fantasy people have.
High power spells should cost a bit less with high skill, but I think high power runes should always be a tad slower to cast. Not too much though. Enough that you feel the weight of it.

MAGIC PROTECTION

As only light armoured folks without metal can use magic, metal wearing armour folks should enjoy additional resistance and damage reduction against magic depending on how much they wear and what material they are wearing. This would distribute some protection against magic and it would only be fair as not being to use gifted magic is a huge disadvantage. Getting the numbers just right is another issue though.

Other guilds could use new tools too, like a lesser power but generally encompassing magic resistance miracle. Best protection of course would be the correct resist element as it is now but it is rather hard to get for non-priests which leads me to symbols of faith. The trinkets which are nice and thematic but very few use? They could be used to store a one use low tier utility miracle with a fast casting time. You could store a resist fire there if you fear you will be on fire anytime soon, for example. After the miracle is spent you would have to go a priest or temple for a ritual or somesuch to have it charged again. Again more resistances would be added to the game world and also much needed presence of the gods.

It would also be fun if some magical and divine effects would work as counterspells, like light counters dark. What the effects would be and what would counter what are too numerous to begin to list here but the idea could have merit and would give priests some room to work with.

KAWU

The beloved kawu...Being able to hold multiple kawu attack spells prepared is somewhat of suspect given that you can have prepaid kawus from scrolls and wands. Kawu is what wrecks and does big damage. Imagine if your general mage testie prepared two different kawus from scrolls, two from wands and for the heck of it, one with actual mana from own current mana pool. Then you enter room and unleash five attack spells in the span of few seconds. Should kawu be restricted to just one active kawu at a time? Should active kawus be more costly and harder to upkeep? Most likely something needs to happen here.

One small nerf that I would personally feel pleasing would be to add a slight delay as your release the kawu attack spell so that it does not happen instantly, thus creating an illusion of weight behind the unrestrained power you unleash on your opponent. The delay should also not be long enough for everyone being always able to flee the mage and the deadly spell.

EDIT: Touching kawu is pretty tricky. It is too easy to eliminate all combat power from a mage by nerfing kawu too much as it is the primary way to deal damage and while adding delays would feel fine, experienced players would just move out from the room and avoid the spell altogether as moving away is rather simple.

I might have forgotten something but this is quite a lot already. I am also happy to offer any meager assistance I might be able to give if some of these ideas are seen as suitable to be incorporated into the game.

[ferranifer]

I agree with every single one of the points.

I'd add that scroll magic needs to be looked at. It has no constrains on what can be cast with it and is an easy way to sidestep the penalties of free magic.

[Zehren]

two magician song is a very viable counter to magic.

[ferranifer]

two magician song is a very viable counter to magic.

It is, but given the ambush/alpha strike dynamics of PvP, the hardcoded limited access to Skald power and the active cost of singing, magic resistance needs to be passive to be effective. Just like armor/defense/acrobat are for physical attacks. Passive sources of magic resistance are almost non-existent.

[ila]

I don't actually feel like discussing this after all.

[ferranifer]

I don't agree with spells using stamina. Stamina is a pointless resource to balance things around when talking about the ability to instantly win an encounter.
Fatigue is much better. Mana is even better.

As for the other points about casting modes, instant casting and power scaling, these are my thoughts:

• Power runes are there to modulate power output and ensure mastery from the caster. "To cast powerful spells you need to have high skills." This is an axis that must be independent from the time axis.
• Casting speeds are there to allow the caster to choose taking risks to accelerate output. The casting time itself (at the scale of the 10 seconds or so that it takes to fast cast a spell) is no longer a factor in a real engagement. 'cast fast' should be the upper limit for how quickly someone can hard cast a spell without preparation or tools.
• Power output must be dependent on time. If not, you end up with uncontrollable power creep, in a world where everything is determined by time and cooldowns, therefore...
• Instant casts are an abomination of the system. The closest other thing to instant casting are twigs and sigils, both with immense opportunity costs, lengthy preparations and power caps. The next best thing is staves and wands. Also subdued to limitations and caps. As for the difficulty of instant casts, even level 1 spells can be incredibly powerful, depending on the spell. Instant casting should be removed.
• Free casting is awesome in concept, and an important part of the flavour of the magic system, but it is obscenely powerful when paired with the fast casting mechanics. A mage has over 250 spells available at their fingertips. Free casting should be possible, but slow enough that it is not a factor in situations that require a balanced clash of strengths.
• Mages have the ability to prepare a number of spells and then move and engage. Your cast spells do not drop when you move, so you're not actually giving anyone a time-advantage. They already have the ability to deliver an instant opening killing alpha strike, when prepared. There is no need for them to also have the ability to land an instant attack whenever. And yes, this is largely a flavor aspect of the design of magic versus physical combat, but that's always been the understanding and I agree with that sentiment.
• Unlike with the infamous "Nadie elbow", there are no common passive defenses against magic alpha strikes. Combat specials check against skills and armour. Passive magic resistance is limited to tiny amounts and incredibly rare. Passive magic resistance is also undesirable because it affects positive magic too, so it would never become commonplace even if it was widely available except for select elements like fire or air.

I agree about removing the fumble manashock. I've always found that mechanic to be incredibly unfriendly to the player. I much rather see it gone and all spells gaining more of the other types of fumbles like forced dancing, blindness and so on. Miscasts are a much more interesting way to do manashock as well. They can create cool, hilarious and dangerous situations IC and they will deliver on the idea that magic is hard to control and can lead to bad situations.

I am glad you agree that most of the power of a mage comes from their flexibility. This is a step forward. But it's important to also acknowledge other disparities between the power of magic and the rest of the game.

Finally, a thought about character scaling. Everyone puts a ton of time on their character, not just mages. Everyone has very real hard caps to their power too. Elbow cannot go above 100. Eventually all your skills will be at 100 and then that's it. The game does not need infinite power scaling. The game definitely does not need infinite power scaling only for mages. Time spent does not need to correlate 1:1 to power increases and must be subject to diminishing returns and caps. The game offers much more than constant grinding for power.

[ila]

removed

[Delia]

Edited the original post.

[ferranifer]

removed

Ila had written: "I don't know why you want to make my character even weaker, but frankly I don't have the energy to care about this game anymore, so argue as you wish."

Nobody is trying to make you weaker, we are trying to address issues of balance that affect the future of the game too.
Everyone that has posted here so far plays high level Mages too.

[ila]

No you don't.

[Laewyloth]

Disclaimer: I don't play a mage.

Balance is a tricky thing, because balance is -usually- introduced 'after the fact' when there's already some -imbalance-, and that's usually caused by someone finding the upper 'end' of whatever needs to be balanced and then people think that's representative of the...entire class/skill/guild/race/whatever-your-game-has.

Just reading through the comments I kind of feel like the right approach would be (regardless of what actual changes you lobby for or against would be)

• Decide on whether or not Mages, as a guild, should be (or is) 'special'. By special, I mean - does this guild require significantly -more- effort to join and remain in, compared to any other guild?
• IF it's special, then you have to accept that any question of balance needs to keep that in mind (i.e. it is okay for mages to be 'stronger' or more versatile or have fewer counters). IF it's not, then you need to decide what 'needs to go' as far as what's made it -feel- special so far (i.e. is it too hard to be a mage?)
• Address the -weaknesses- or problems first, -then- remove or tone the benefits that were supposed to originally address those weaknesses (it's easier to tone something downwards -after- you've addressed the other constraints or considerations that were originally in place for the increase.

Using mana-burn as an example here: It really, -really-, -really- sucks to suddenly have your mana drop to 0. Nobody can deny this, and if you can or do, I urge you to measure how long that takes you out of the game. 10 minutes of meditate-idling is brutal. Now, if we 'fixed that problem', mages can be less concerned about -failing- spells. Great, okay! So now, what about being interrupted or 'stopped' from casting? What if we solve for -that-? Okay, great - that means then that the -rationale- for having instant-casting becomes weaker, so maybe we get rid of it 'at that point, and only at that point', and instead, start adjusting casting times. So on, and so on.

Arguing about toning something down, without making sure the reason for its initial existence is resolved...is what leads to broken systems and people getting all huffy.

[Delia]

Spells fizzling and mana going to zero is a spell botch. Originally it was the only spell botch in existence. Since then a few more have been added into the game. As every mage guild master player is a more or less a beta tester with the power to request new things like completely new spells and balance old ones and ask for other features such as replacement spell botches for the fizzle which drains all mana which everyone agrees to be unfun, it is not a failure of the system but a failure of the players for not doing anything for the system.

[Laewyloth]

...and ask for other features such as replacement spell botches for the fizzle which drains all mana which everyone agrees to be unfun...

Then you're all slacking! :< As someone who is regularly victimized by this even with staff magic, I'm going to start a petition to yell at mages until you all get this changed!

[ferranifer]

Disclaimer: I don't play a mage.

Balance is a tricky thing, because balance is -usually- introduced 'after the fact' when there's already some -imbalance-, and that's usually caused by someone finding the upper 'end' of whatever needs to be balanced and then people think that's representative of the...entire class/skill/guild/race/whatever-your-game-has.

Just reading through the comments I kind of feel like the right approach would be (regardless of what actual changes you lobby for or against would be)

• Decide on whether or not Mages, as a guild, should be (or is) 'special'. By special, I mean - does this guild require significantly -more- effort to join and remain in, compared to any other guild?
• IF it's special, then you have to accept that any question of balance needs to keep that in mind (i.e. it is okay for mages to be 'stronger' or more versatile or have fewer counters). IF it's not, then you need to decide what 'needs to go' as far as what's made it -feel- special so far (i.e. is it too hard to be a mage?)
• Address the -weaknesses- or problems first, -then- remove or tone the benefits that were supposed to originally address those weaknesses (it's easier to tone something downwards -after- you've addressed the other constraints or considerations that were originally in place for the increase.

Using mana-burn as an example here: It really, -really-, -really- sucks to suddenly have your mana drop to 0. Nobody can deny this, and if you can or do, I urge you to measure how long that takes you out of the game. 10 minutes of meditate-idling is brutal. Now, if we 'fixed that problem', mages can be less concerned about -failing- spells. Great, okay! So now, what about being interrupted or 'stopped' from casting? What if we solve for -that-? Okay, great - that means then that the -rationale- for having instant-casting becomes weaker, so maybe we get rid of it 'at that point, and only at that point', and instead, start adjusting casting times. So on, and so on.

Arguing about toning something down, without making sure the reason for its initial existence is resolved...is what leads to broken systems and people getting all huffy.

• Nobody should be getting "all huffy" about anything.
• Not addressing unexpected issues when they appear is how you get broken systems.
• The mages guild is special in many ways aside from their mechanical power. It's also fragile and can easily break if not handled with care.
• Considering how close to the role of "game altering designer' the spell research process is, it is important that all mages work together on maintaining the system, at the very least at a mechanical level. Specially when unexpected or brand new mechanics appear. We are in Beta.

[ferranifer]

Spells fizzling and mana going to zero is a spell botch. Originally it was the only spell botch in existence. Since then a few more have been added into the game. As every mage guild master player is a more or less a beta tester with the power to request new things like completely new spells and balance old ones and ask for other features such as replacement spell botches for the fizzle which drains all mana which everyone agrees to be unfun, it is not a failure of the system but a failure of the players for not doing anything for the system.

You are right but I'd still ask for the default critical fumble to be changed to something more player friendly. As Ila said in the post she removed, just failing the spell is already punishing mana wise. The act of casting is already expensive! Goes in line with your comments about mana costs, which I think we all agree are excessive.

[Delia]

I agree that the default botch should be changed but the problem is...what would be the new default botch? I would prefer if there were more degrees of failure involved, whatever it might be.

[ferranifer]

I agree that the default botch should be changed but the problem is...what would be the new default botch? I would prefer if there were more degrees of failure involved, whatever it might be.

It could draw from the more interesting fun ones that already exist, like the dancing, or frogs raining from the sky, or magic fireworks shooting in all directions.
Then we could emphasize that the spell creation process should try to provide cool new ideas for botches specific of that spell.

AFAIK there are already degrees of failure. I've gotten some pretty radical botches when trying outrageous things like casting kawu kers as an Adept. Those tend to be more physically crippling like (long duration!) blindness and paralysis. They also tend to be great for storytelling. E.g. Getting your arm paralyzed while casting from a tree and your staff falling down to the forest floor. Happened to a friend.

Like with most things, some comedy and light-heartedness can be the cause of interesting emerging stories. Perhaps that should be the criteria: Can this fumble kickstart a cool scene?

I think they can easily range from "oops I didn't want fireworks" to "ehh, sorry, I didn't mean to summon a hailstorm" to "I can't feel my body anymore".

[Arsicas]

I would say that instacasting certain things is pretty OP. At first I was like “Well, it’s limited to a certain power level.” But even at low power, instacasting certain things can completely shut down the other person. I do think wands/scrolls/staffs work pretty well for quick casting. But, I would argue that even “fast” casting via spellcraft is pretty slow, so I would recommend adding an additional very fast speed perhaps. Or maybe tweak the casting speeds.

I feel like free magic seems to be working as intended. I fail much more often at yar/mur+ with spells I don’t have memorized or don’t know a similar mantra of. So yes, if it’s something I use a lot or want to use at a higher level, I want to memorize it. My current issue is not enough mantra slots. But I also could maybe slim down my spellbook some.

Maybe mana costs ought to be looked at as well. I’ve tried to keep continually draining mana during PvE with a manadrain spell, and I still seem to lose more mana than I gain, so most times when grinding I don’t even use spells. Also a problem when in a team and having to meditate after every fight practically or just not use spells. Maybe I could experiment some more to find a good practical way to make it work, but it seems other people have noticed issues with mana cost as well.

[Delia]

Some spells work better for wands if you want speed. Some spells are almost useless for scrolls but superb with other modes. Similarly some spells shine as scrolls but are not so useful with other modes. There is a delicate balance there. Personally I think the casting speeds outside instacasts could use a small scaling tweak that favours the low end of power but going much faster? That invites balance disaster. Look at clerics and their casting speeds. It could be even worse. Mages have tons of options to configure. If your fancy ten rune spell of OP is slow to cast verbally... Make it a wand for almost instant casting!

Anyways, it would be good to get a message from top that states if mages are considered to need a balance lookover or not. That would sort things out. If not, we could all stop brainstorming and resume play with everyone fully knowing everything is as intended. If the answer is yes, the discussion can continue and if there is a need, I am more than willing to resign my character to a mage testie status and I could help testing any potential changes without subjecting others to them until things get ironed to perfection.

[roxvod]

There are a lot of good points in this thread. Some of them I agree with wholeheartedly, and some points addressing features I'll admit would make me sad to see them go.

Regardless of that, the people weighing in on these posts have been mages for a very, very long time, and they have more experience in how this beta state affects the game.

I'm +1 regarding this mage balance, as it is meant to make the game more enjoyable for us all as a collective.