Mage Balance

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Delia · #21 Post by **Delia** » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:33 pm

I can only tell you how we envisioned mages to be in regards to fighting power, and whether we will achieve that or not is probably a matter of testing and tuning.

Mages will be - alone and unprepared - no match for a skilled fighter. Just as it should be in any decent setting. If they however have the time to prepare, or if they are protected by some bodyguards (fighters), they will be quite powerful.

louis · #22 Post by **louis** » Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:35 am

Delia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:18 am Anyways, it would be good to get a message from top that states if mages are considered to need a balance lookover or not. That would sort things out. If not, we could all stop brainstorming and resume play with everyone fully knowing everything is as intended. If the answer is yes, the discussion can continue and if there is a need, I am more than willing to resign my character to a mage testie status and I could help testing any potential changes without subjecting others to them until things get ironed to perfection.

Hello all,
I brought this matter to T, and the divine sign is: We would be listening. We are currently neither saying that the mages definately need a balance lookover, neither we are saying the opposite, we are interested in your thoughts there.

So much as officicial statement.

My inofficial and personal position is, that maybe one or the other mage player on the one or the other occasion possibly might not have put his/her personal responsibility towards the game and game-balance as top priority.

Louis <3

Delia · #23 Post by **Delia** » Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:56 am

I am slowly reporting some stuff that could use a look at when it comes to individual spells. Personally I would love to see the Mage Guild in a better place in the game world and OOC too. Some stuff is just so powerful even speaking about it to non-mages makes you feel uneasy. I am not saying mages should not be powerful, they just should not be all powerful superheroes. Some of the stuff feels like debug features and for that purposes the mage powers are wonderful, testing out the system with joyous abandon. If I should answer is it good for the game at large should the situation remain, I would be forced to say no.

EDIT:

Just have to add that naturally scaling is rather hard and us players have a hard time seeing that clearly. Some stuff that a master mage does might feel very OP but it is easy to overlook that a lesser mage might not accomplish much with the same spell. This is one concern too, that the smaller mages get hit too hard with any potential magic nerf.

ferranifer · #24 Post by **ferranifer** » Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:03 pm

louis wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:35 am My inofficial and personal position is, that maybe one or the other mage player on the one or the other occasion possibly might not have put his/her personal responsibility towards the game and game-balance as top priority.

Louis <3

I'm definitely guilty of this and it's been notoriously hard for me to know where the line is drawn. But I've also erred on the side of safety and have never pushed (nor plan to demonstrate) the full extent of my power in PvP situations. I've had many theoretical bouts with people about possible situations and outcomes of PvP usage, but have yet to use magic in PvP once (with PvP being where overpowered becomes outrageous). Makes it hard to know where the line should be drawn in practical matters, as I have no practical experience. Some of the theoretical points of balance we can still discuss on paper though, IMHO.

I was told when I became a mage: "Don't do anything that'd make cartographers cry." I love this sentence and it has been my motto both IC and OOC ever since. I have indoctrinated my students IC and everyone OOC about this. I've had plenty of conversations with people OOC about using magic responsibly, including other mages. I can sympathize that it's hard to know the repercussions of some of your actions though.

louis · #25 Post by **louis** » Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:12 pm

louis wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:35 am My inofficial and personal position is, that maybe one or the other mage player on the one or the other occasion possibly might not have put his/her personal responsibility towards the game and game-balance as top priority.

Just to make that sure, please do not take any offense at all. It is just my personal impression without blaming anyone in person. L

ferranifer · #26 Post by **ferranifer** » Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:18 pm

louis wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:12 pm
louis wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:35 am My inofficial and personal position is, that maybe one or the other mage player on the one or the other occasion possibly might not have put his/her personal responsibility towards the game and game-balance as top priority.
Just to make that sure, please do not take any offense at all. It is just my personal impression without blaming anyone in person. L

No offense taken from my side!

ila · #27 Post by **ila** » Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:24 pm

I generally try to compare myself with top tier characters of other archetypes, because approximately that's what I am as a mage. It is always also important to consider general guild balance, 1v1 fights are rarely going to be balanced anyway because any two random characters will have very different contexts and considerations.

There are always individual problem spells, some are too weak, some are too strong. Some are powerful because of design issues beyond mages (eg. darkness or blinding seem strong because blindfighting seems a little difficult to train and blindness in general is overly crippling).

Because balance issues are not very obvious, though, I often try to test pretty thoroughly before I report them. Mages are so random and wild, luck is actually a huge factor. Beyond that, I don't know whether something is intended, eg. if instant casting is not an intended possibility (nevermind that the formula may need adjusting), why does the system allow multiple runes at once?

I'd be happy to discuss balance concerns sometime with a wizard but don't have the energy to do so on the forum.

Delia · #28 Post by **Delia** » Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:09 pm

Edited kawu in OP.

Delia · #29 Post by **Delia** » Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:53 am

One thing mage players have been curious about...Melee damage has seemed to be on the lower side and the collective tinfoil hat has a theory that magic has somekind of melee related penalty. I would not personally mind if there is such a thing. I just would like for us to understand existing balancing mechanisms better if that is possible.

Delia · #30 Post by **Delia** » Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:43 am

Generally speaking there is nothing wrong with powerful mantras being powerful and useful. Having free magic being so effective at times that there always is no good reason to actually research a spell. So... a general rule of thumb could be that free magic effectiveness is more lower than it is now compared to a similar power mantra.

To achieve this, lower overall magic power, add magic power for mantras to reach a similar level that is now. Not sure how things exactly work but this could save a lot of work when inspecting singular spells. How does this sound for starters?

Naturally some conveniences should follow after this like faster research times. The aim is to keep mages fun and out there, not constantly sitting still

ferranifer · #31 Post by **ferranifer** » Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:39 am

Delia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:43 am Generally speaking there is nothing wrong with powerful mantras being powerful and useful. Having free magic being so effective at times that there always is no good reason to actually research a spell. So... a general rule of thumb could be that free magic effectiveness is more lower than it is now compared to a similar power mantra.

To achieve this, lower overall magic power, add magic power for mantras to reach a similar level that is now. Not sure how things exactly work but this could save a lot of work when inspecting singular spells. How does this sound for starters?

Naturally some conveniences should follow after this like faster research times. The aim is to keep mages fun and out there, not constantly sitting still

I like this power shift solution and I agree with the premise. I'd also bring up again the idea of making free magic a lot slower to cast than memorized magic.

Another possibility to include is that free magic could not be usable in mental mode. It'd emphasize a need to learn verbal and gesture as well. Specially gesture seems pointless to learn unless there is some hidden benefit I am not aware of.

Delia · #32 Post by **Delia** » Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:29 pm

Cast verbal benefit is the apparent easiness compared to other modes?

Cast gesture benefit could be slightly faster casting speed overall compared to other modes. Think of finger tutting in The Magicians. Pretty quick!

Cast mental has its obvious benefits.

ferranifer · #33 Post by **ferranifer** » Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:46 pm

Delia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:29 pm Cast verbal benefit is the apparent easiness compared to other modes?

I have not noticed cast verbal being easier than cast gesture at the same skill level.

Cast verbal feels easier to improve, but not to use.

Delia · #34 Post by **Delia** » Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:53 pm

Cast verbal feels easier to improve, but not to use.

What I meant.

Zehren · #35 Post by **Zehren** » Fri Jan 22, 2021 12:59 pm

ferranifer wrote: ↑Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:39 am Another possibility to include is that free magic could not be usable in mental mode. It'd emphasize a need to learn verbal and gesture as well. Specially gesture seems pointless to learn unless there is some hidden benefit I am not aware of.

I don't like that idea, and would have to do some massive retcon or soft-shelving if it happened

I've always thought cast verbal was supposed to be easier than cast gesture was supposed to be easier than cast mental.
If that's currently only in terms of learning (going by the comments about not noticing any difference in difficulty of use) - well, maybe it would be good to make verbal easier to use than gesture and gesture easier to use than mental.

Have you done any testing to see if there's any difference in how easily disturbed you get by enemies when using the three modes?

ferranifer wrote: ↑Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:39 am I'd also bring up again the idea of making free magic a lot slower to cast than memorized magic.

I do like this idea. Even something as small as a 2x or 3x multiplier to time would be a huge difference in combat situations. 5x time requirements would be significant outside too just in the time involved. Could easily be scaled up or down to find the sweet spot. (Might well be higher than 5x.)

Delia · #36 Post by **Delia** » Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:06 pm

Have you done any testing to see if there's any difference in how easily disturbed you get by enemies when using the three modes?

I have not managed to notice any significant difference but then again, I have not kept such an eye on the matter.

Arsicas · #37 Post by **Arsicas** » Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:48 pm

I could see free magic being made a bit more difficult/slower to cast. Although certain spells already seem to cause me a lot of trouble. Also keep in mind that any changes to free magic will likely affect tiny mages the most, as they don’t have many mantra slots and can only learn mantras a master teaches them. Of course, a fledgling mage would probably cast slower and have less mastery over spells naturally.

Delia · #38 Post by **Delia** » Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:59 pm

as they don’t have many mantra slots and can only learn mantras a master teaches them

The dream is that the mantra system itself could be tweaked, simplest thing is to increase the amount of mantras available if free magic is made harder. More ways for learning mantras could be added too like from guild trainer.

Delia · #39 Post by **Delia** » Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:27 am

One piece of tinfoil I have been wearing for a while:

Does magic or mage membership give some sort of penalty to fighter capabilities? Auto attack damage, crit rate, special use and damage and the sort?

I do not mind if there was a fighter nerf in the mage package, but I would appreciate knowing for a fact what kind of mechanical penalties magic and being a mage imposes on a character, if there are any.

An answer would be very much appreciated and would free us some brain time for other matters

Allalltar · #40 Post by **Allalltar** » Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:51 am

I agree that magic needs some look at in some outliers for high level mages, but I'll also say that, in my passing 2 cc, the entire combat balance needs a look first before you have anything to balance magic against.

Geas

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