Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

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Ioca
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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#41 Post by Ioca » Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:39 am

ferranifer wrote:with no possible repercussions
Except you've played rogues so you kinda know that the repercussions and the risk involved are just absolutely tremendous. The rogue I mentioned in the edit messed up pretty bad attacking someone, got unmasked, and basically had to quit playing.

Granted, that one was due to a bug, but it didn't matter. If a rogue dies with a mask, their ghost is unmasked. Even if they 'start' before anyone sees them, they'll probably want their things back, so they're going to need to resurrect and spend a giant amount of effort disguising up again. They'll need to run to the bank for a bunch of gold they'd better have saved up, then they'll need to run to one of the contacts, then they'll need to purchase the required tools and hopefully they had enough reputation to do so but probably didn't, which takes at minimum a minute and at most quite a lot more since you'll want to "list" the goods, which again uses thief rep, and then they'll want to get their tools fitted which again uses more gold and thief rep, and then they'll probably want to make sure they're disguised right by one of the various ways of doing so (usually you'd want another player to look at you, etc.) so that other players don't see right through their disguise - though other players can occasionally see through 'em anyway if they've got high enough stats and all, therefore risking an immediate outlawry and shunning because wearing a disguise equates being a thief, and thievery is treated worse than murder on Geas.

But yeah, no consequences at all for a rogue who fails. You're totally right. You go on thinking that!
ferranifer wrote:underhanded stabs
There's a certain group of people on Geas who vocally hate everything rogue-related. I dunno, seems pretty apparent to me.. After the initial shock of realizing how true it was, having interacting with one or two alts of said people, I'm actually just more curious than I am bitter about it! I wanna know what happened in the past that made them _so_ put off by everything rogue-related!

As an actual jab, some of them even put their RP off a bit to come up with asinine ways to try and 'unmask' active rogues, like lying that they saw so-and-so use mugging when they actually used whirlwind or disarm, or asking why so-and-so is so sneaky despite never once seeing them sneak. I think there's more examples! Notes written on boards hinting that those who know backstabbery must definitely be thieves - but written by a character that knows backstab, who was surrounded by other characters who knew backstab, none of whom were thieves. I mean, it got more amusing than frustrating after a point. ^^

Edit:

Thinking back, I actually don't think my character had even been a rogue yet the first time one of 'em tried to unmask her! I was quite a lot of a newbie back then, but I recall the deathpriest's comments, and being boggled. My character learned backstab from watching, not from a trainer.

...One last edit since I couldn't sleep! The one and only time I attacked one of Ferra's characters was without a disguise, and you went out of your way, despite playing an evil character, to use it in an attempt to associate my character with the rogues as punishment/retaliation. The point is, you know the repercussions - you know that there's risk, so I dunno why you'd fib otherwise and underline it, too. As an aside, do you actually have a single character besides your mage that didn't pop up and take an immediate interest in trying to associate Aisa as a rogue? lol!

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Delia
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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#42 Post by Delia » Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:26 am

No one hates rogues, but what is evident from data gathered over the years, disguise ruins the fun for everyone involved. If unmasking ruins your character, it can never go well, no matter how legit it is. Similarly, victims of disguise are fed up with there being no one to interact with and practically powerless. It is just a lose - lose situation for the game.

Simple player psychology observations quickly reveal that as rogues play the confidence game, players usually react poorly when their confidence is broken. Basic stuff, no matter how much RP this or that is declared.

Thievery is much worse for players than death, on many levels. IG, it kinda makes sense too in a world of seemingly infinite resurrections and infinite deaths, you want to keep what brings you comfort close. Mess with that and it is big trouble. Increasing death penalties will not work. It is a path well travelled already. Quicker recovery keeps players in the game and interested. No one wants to be stuck with newbie stats forever when a string of bad luck hits you.

Something needs to change, simply put. Rogues need to be able to exist after unmasking. And it will happen eventually. First things to help that is for rogues to acknowledge that they are a "bad" guild at best, accessory to heinous evil or murder most foul most likely. Not innocent social butterflies. That is your face. Your true known face. Now apply disguise to do business. Rogues would make a wonderful Lilithian guild too. A very good fit. Your disguise would eventually fail and people will recognize you as the villain... So what! Do the cackle and smoke bomb routine, come back looking like someone else.

Or do the social route and etablish a front for the guild people can establish official business with. Regulate behaviour, enforce rules, show that you have a code and you follow it, build *trust* you do not ever plan to break between players. Negotiate with various officials. You'd be surprised how willing people are to deal with an actual, real face.

Ramble off, once more.
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Ioca
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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#43 Post by Ioca » Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:42 am

Not bad points, but have to say again, there are zero active rogues. None, zip, nada! I believe the only item stolen from any player in the past entire IRL year by a rogue was an artifact (except whatever the briefly-about rogue may have done, but believe he was abusing a feature that got disabled -by request- of the active one rogue). The two rogues who played, and the one or two before them, were all of the like-minded nature that thiefing from players was a bad idea.

I think this is the literal definition of beating a horse. In contrast btw, I've seen non-rogues breaking into inn rooms and stealing from players, so there's that. The rogues tend to punish them. Maybe it gets misconstrued.

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Arsicas
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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#44 Post by Arsicas » Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:11 am

Delia wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:26 am No one hates rogues, but what is evident from data gathered over the years, disguise ruins the fun for everyone involved.
I’m not really sure why people feel this is the case. I’ve actually had quite a lot of fun interacting with disguised characters. Some my character could tell were disguised, some I the player knew were disguised but my character didn’t. I feel like it brought an element of intrigue when my character knew they were disguised but didn’t know who they were exactly.

I also don’t feel like rogues have been abusive as far as thievery. Really, the rogues I know have rarely stolen from player characters, and those that did usually brought an element of “Hey, here’s how to get your item back.” But yeah, people seem super paranoid about not only theft but anything a rogue could potentially do to them. Because of disguise and the inability to retaliate in that case? I don’t know.

I do feel like the solution to the dreaded unmasking/being found out would be to make the consequences of being found out not so crippling as they are now (and have been even worse in the past). But I feel like certain guild mechanics need to be adjusted for that to work.

As far as the roleplay side of things... there is a front in game. Though, yeah, right now we kind of lack the rogue players for anything to actually happen. I feel like if people want more interaction, that could definitely happen. But I think both sides need to see it as less of a competition and who can get the upper hand and as more of an interplay and mutual storytelling.
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Melendil
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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#45 Post by Melendil » Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:55 am

Delia wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:26 am Something needs to change, simply put. Rogues need to be able to exist after unmasking. And it will happen eventually. First things to help that is for rogues to acknowledge that they are a "bad" guild at best, accessory to heinous evil or murder most foul most likely. Not innocent social butterflies. That is your face. Your true known face. Now apply disguise to do business. Rogues would make a wonderful Lilithian guild too. A very good fit. Your disguise would eventually fail and people will recognize you as the villain... So what! Do the cackle and smoke bomb routine, come back looking like someone else
Maybe the thieves guild could have a "face vendor", an NPC that resets your identity but not your character. Extensive (and expensive) plastic surgery/magical mutation that alters you beyond recognition (including height and weight, everything but race), giving you a fresh start with a new public identity. Reputation would be set to neutral across the board but karma and favour would be unaffected. Such a procedure should be incredibly expensive so it doesn't just become the go to solution for disguise, but perhaps that would at least give exposed thieves another option besides quitting?

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Delia
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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#46 Post by Delia » Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:01 am

Or better yet, make the face vendor available for everyone. Best blanket cover there is. Make the vendor a mage guild NPC(not physically located in the guild), Geas has a big history of magical transmutations. Could be fun.
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

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