Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

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louis
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Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#1 Post by louis » Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:43 pm

Hello people,
we have been discussing the general topic of masks and disguises amongst the
wizards, and we thought it might be a good idea to share our thoughts and
approaches with you.

After [extensive] discussion with you, these guidelines likely might become
part of the game rules of GEAS.

So, how to play the game with possibly disguised and masked characters:

1.) Excursus: About the quantity of groups on forostar
The game offers a lot of evidence, that the population of forostar must be by far
larger than the number of PCs and NPCs in the game suggests. The information
presented to you is always just a partial view of the game world.

As a logical consequence, any attempt, from a characters perspective, to quantify
the population of Forostar or the population of individual groups can always be
traced back to a misunderstanding of this very central aspect of game lore.

Your character simply is not able to tell the size, and also not the member names,
of any subgroup of the forostar population.

This means, that stating "ic facts" based on assumed numbers, like for instance
"a ranger halfling", "must be x or y then", are not allowed according to game lore.

Assumptions like "a ranger halfling", "_could_ _maybe_ have been be x or y" are
allowed, if your character has this knowledge.

2.) The possibility of masks/disguises is valid character knowledge
If your character is experienced enough, or has heard enough, your character is
of course allowed to assume the general possibility, that a person may be able
to apply a disguise on herself or on others.

Masks and which guild they belong to are considered knowledge of your char once
he has learned that (though masks generally can of course also be given away from
a technical and rulewise point of view).

3.) How to handle a possibly disguised or masked character
The easiest way to detect a possibly disguised character is, if the game clearly
tells you.

If the system does not tell you that a character is disguised, it depends on the
current context of your char.

If you see a random masked human without any context, your char is of course
allowed to draw assumptions from the mask type to the most plausible group,
but not very much more.

Same applies to possibly disguised characters without any context, they are to
be considered as random game characters then.

if you have a very clear context, the quality and the detail grade of the assumptions
of your character is allowed to draw may of course increase.

If your character for instance has seen the satho <name> an hour ago, it is at least
not absolutely unlikely anymore, that this masked satho is now just Satho <name>
wearing a mask.

Same applies for disguises: If you received several mails threatening your character
with his death, a random person that attacks you could possibly be your foe in
disguise or a hired villain.

4.) Keeping PC and NPC apart
This is maybe the hardest part - please also keep in mind, that from a players perspective,
you should not be abe to keep PC and NPC apart.

Epilogue:
We hope, that these guidelines might help a little, to get us all out of this unpleasant
"you-are-metagaming","i-am-not-metagaming" situation. But besides this, we are of course
also having a look at the mechanics of disguises as a whole, maybe we will decide to make
adjustments there too the next weeks.

But this might then be the matter of another announcement.

---

Kind regards

Louis

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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#2 Post by ferranifer » Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:06 pm

Thank you for presenting this guidelines and clarifications!

I have two questions:

A) What happens when someone claims that you don't have enough information to suspect?

B) There is plenty of historic precedence about disguise existing and being usable only by thieves/rogues (as far as the public knows). Can we assume that people that is disguised belongs to a criminal organization? That is currently the case with masks. There is a 1:1 correlation between mask description and organization.

IMHO establishing the rogues as an organization that people can interact with and that has responsibility and accountability over the actions of thieves is a step forward toward integrating rogue behavior as a harmonic part of the game for all. This is exactly how Order and Sathos operate already and what keeps (kept?) them at bay in Arborea. Yet it seems impossible to do that in an atmosphere where rogue issues are typically handled in an OOC manner through a veil of obscurity and mistrust.

Thanks a lot in advance!

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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#3 Post by Arsicas » Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:50 pm

ferranifer wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:06 pm Thank you for presenting this guidelines and clarifications!

I have two questions:

A) What happens when someone claims that you don't have enough information to suspect?

B) There is plenty of historic precedence about disguise existing and being usable only by thieves/rogues (as far as the public knows). Can we assume that people that is disguised belongs to a criminal organization? That is currently the case with masks. There is a 1:1 correlation between mask description and organization.

IMHO establishing the rogues as an organization that people can interact with and that has responsibility and accountability over the actions of thieves is a step forward toward integrating rogue behavior as a harmonic part of the game for all. This is exactly how Order and Sathos operate already and what keeps (kept?) them at bay in Arborea. Yet it seems impossible to do that in an atmosphere where rogue issues are typically handled in an OOC manner through a veil of obscurity and mistrust.

Thanks a lot in advance!
I think that certain things with the rogues and their role in the game need to be addressed. It’s been tried to have them be more out in the open, and it’s been tried to have them be more secretive, but I’m not sure if there is a current guild wizard to address these things, and also not sure how much should be discussed on an open forum.

I do like the idea of there being a criminal organization that people can interact with (possibly anonymously via disguise or through the current mechanisms in game). But I think right now it’s kind of in a limbo state between various previous ideas and could use an overhaul to get everything on the same page.
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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#4 Post by ila » Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:31 pm

One thing I'm personally curious is how far the above applies to mages, as high mages are generally implied to be fairly rare as occupations go. I have no doubt the number of high mages exceeds the players and visible NPCs filling those roles, perhaps by a sizable factor, but I'd assume the factor is much smaller than for common thieves or even deathpriests.

Each mage's choice of spells tends to be unique as well.

There's no mage anonymity feature, but anyone can acquire a mask, and once you start casting spells, it's fairly obvious you're a mage, and if you start casting signature spells, assumptions can be made even more quickly.

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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#5 Post by Delia » Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:08 am

I would say the answer is very simple for mages. Mages can sense each other, locate each other, sense spells cast by mages and even see which mage cast a spell sometime ago. IF a new mage of any power suddenly pops up, it raises much suspicion.

Personally I am against the notion of invisible npc mages as it would break the beauty of existing mechanisms and there would be a need to tweak them to suit the existence of invisible npc mages. Current npc mages register as mages to PC mages, like Ecthor. Anyhoo, I would appreciate an answer to this one :)
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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#6 Post by Zehren » Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:31 pm

Also against invisible mages, just like I'm against invisible lord marshalls, invisible archbishops, invisible dreadmasters, etc. Rare positions.
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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#7 Post by ferranifer » Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:20 pm

I agree. Mages are all known and accounted for, not only in lore but also in game mechanics.

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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#8 Post by ila » Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:02 am

Except that mages with actual in-game characters are not always accounted for, and the mechanics are not guaranteed to be foolproof.

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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#9 Post by Delia » Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:26 am

I am sure if any of the master mages tried to pull of any shenanigans dipping into rogue disguises and satho masks or somesuch, people would have none of it. The position is so highly visible and painfully obvious that new master mages constantly popping out from the bushes is a paper thin excuse. Awesome magic powers coupled with total impenetrable anonymity makes for poor gaming environment as well.

There is also the big mage spoiler in the guild. NPC mages really should all belong into that just for thematic reasons but anyhoo, admin input appreciated here.
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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#10 Post by ila » Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:42 am

Actually, I thought it was clear there just happen to be more paths to magery than the Ormian mages, but ours is just the most open to player characters. It'd be a bit boring if wizards couldn't create antagonist mages that aren't affiliated with the guild.

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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#11 Post by Zehren » Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:20 am

ila wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:42 am It'd be a bit boring if wizards couldn't create antagonist mages that aren't affiliated with the guild.
Sounds like visible NPCs to me.
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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#12 Post by ila » Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:33 am

Guess wizards can't create any mage with history then. wtf is your thought process?

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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#13 Post by ferranifer » Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:06 am

ila wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:33 am Guess wizards can't create any mage with history then. wtf is your thought process?
Oh they can, but they should adhere to the established magic system mechanics. E.g. they should show up in pings. If they didn't in the past that's likely an oversight. Every mage NPC does.

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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#14 Post by Zehren » Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:10 am

ila wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:33 am Guess wizards can't create any mage with history then. wtf is your thought process?
That's a very aggressive tone, please read the forum rules.
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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#15 Post by Delia » Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:17 am

Guess wizards can't create any mage with history then. wtf is your thought process?
poFerranifer already answered the general part but I can enlighten about my thought processes. They are about game balance and game thematic cohesiveness first and foremost. Mind you, I have no actual power to affect change hence I spawn ideas and discuss things in a civilized manner. I personally think that the game could use some more hard thematic lore facts which players could not skirt around and come up with anything that happens to be convenient at the time and I confess and apologize the fact that I do try to push the admins to do just that. Whatever the decision(s)might be.
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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#16 Post by ila » Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:48 am

Zehren wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:10 am
ila wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:33 am Guess wizards can't create any mage with history then. wtf is your thought process?
That's a very aggressive tone, please read the forum rules.
Just did, don't see anything wrong with my post.

The spell we're talking about, and let's be clear that it's one single spell, does not show every mage at all times. It has many limitations. I can't follow your thought process here.

There cannot be mages we can't detect, because we can detect every mage that we can detect, even though this is not every mage that exists... ???

edit: maybe this will help enlighten people, if there aren't mages our one detect mage spell can't find, who founded the guild? I have never once detected our guild's founder, yet he remains active in a very real sense.

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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#17 Post by Delia » Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:58 am

edit: maybe this will help enlighten people, if there aren't mages our one detect mage spell can't find, who founded the guild? I have never once detected our guild's founder, yet he remains active in a very real sense.
Yes, and such deviations from the norm should be addressed and reported like one would do to a typo or a bug. It is better to have one strong cohesive system than every player adhering to their own system. Like I have said before, Geas greatly suffers from the fact that players do not really play the same game. Everyone has their slightly different version for different reasons and that is one of the big reasons players bicker and argue.
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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#18 Post by ila » Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:06 am

It's because he's virtually never logged in, the spell can't find people who are logged off. :p

I think this is another instance of "but I can't X them so they must not exist" eg. "I can't see/kill/touch/roleplay/etc. with invisible NPCs, so there aren't any." I'm confused how people are coming to this conclusion, especially after Louis's post, to me it seems like wilful ignorance of the admins' design of the game. :s

It might certainly be nice to have a more in-character explanation for some of these things, but the game is incomplete and the underlying code has limitations.

Beyond that, mages themselves have even more limitations, you cannot expect any spell to be foolproof when even at near max skill they'll still fail on you. :p

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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#19 Post by ferranifer » Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:38 am

It's not about the spell itself but about the general idea that mages are accounted for. The spell is just one method as to why this is true.

If a new (or a disguised) mage showed up it'd be immediately noticed and easy to place in terms of power. Anonymous protection among "thousands of invisible NPCs that could do the same" makes absolutely no sense for mages when every mage has the ability to detect each other and we have not detected more than a dozen mages ever. The detection spell could not possibly exist if that was the case.

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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#20 Post by Delia » Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:02 am

Beyond that, mages themselves have even more limitations, you cannot expect any spell to be foolproof when even at near max skill they'll still fail on you. :p
This is another discussion but I am sure many agree that mages could be in a better place. My suggested version would be to hit free and instant casting and add more dependency on mantras and use that to justice some lower end conveniences like smaller mana costs, faster research times, better success rates(within realms of reason) , better botches that do not eat all your mana and a new way to handle mantra slots. There are ideas.
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