Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

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ila
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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#21 Post by ila » Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:09 am

I disagree that all mages are accounted for, obviously, but because it also seems strange to suggest there are countless high mages around, this is why I asked how far this applies to mages.

Eg. Louis's assertion is no subgroup can be fully accounted for, and I believe there is no reason to think mages are an exception (Ormian mages may be, as a guild, but we are presumably not the only mages).

But because we make some decisions beyond simply being mages, an astute observer might notice patterns (eg. Ila favors these spells in combat). I'm curious what point assembled facts become a fingerprint to identifying a mage.

Perhaps we are rare enough to be an exception to the rule, perhaps not... or perhaps we're so rare that the thought we might be a yet-unheard-of mage is inherently unlikely even if technically possible.

I don't understand why it'd be impossible though. Our magic is fallible by design, after all, and mages have existed before the Ormian guild too. :s

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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#22 Post by ferranifer » Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:24 am

ila wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:09 am I don't understand why it'd be impossible though. Our magic is fallible by design, after all, and mages have existed before the Ormian guild too. :s
All mages that existed before the Covenant are either accounted for (mechanically and lore wise), dead, undead or hiding on purpose by some nefarious means (which gives space for new LQ related mages or NPCs to appear, but not without causing waves). All Covenant mages are accounted for.

This is a very different case than, say, rangers or clerics or just some random elf in the streets.

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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#23 Post by Arsicas » Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:44 pm

I would say that the Ormian mages are fully accounted for by the PCs and NPCs that exist. In my opinion there could be other mages out there though. There supposedly were other mages in the Erriad/Viekang live event. There could be other groups we haven’t come across. But I would say mages as a whole are pretty rare given the time it takes to become one.

As far as identifying a mage, if a “new,” powerful mage showed up, it would be something of an oddity. You’d immediately wonder where this person came from and who they are. So I don’t really see disguise/masks being of much use to mages apart from offering a brief bit of anonymity before people try figuring out who this person is.
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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#24 Post by Melendil » Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:01 pm

There is also likely to be a distribution curve of ability. Even if there are a bunch of virtual mages running about, there will be more low level dabblers than truly powerful accomplished mages.

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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#25 Post by louis » Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:40 pm

louis wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:43 pm As a logical consequence, any attempt, from a characters perspective, to quantify
the population of Forostar or the population of individual groups can always be
traced back to a misunderstanding of this very central aspect of game lore.
Howdy. This statement is official and requires no amendments.

If you think that your guid mechanics need to be changed
to support that approach in a better way, report it please.

I also still owe you an answer to an older question:
ferranifer wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 6:06 pm A) What happens when someone claims that you don't have enough information to suspect?
B) There is plenty of historic precedence about disguise existing and being usable only by thieves/rogues (as far as the public knows). Can we assume that people that is disguised belongs to a criminal organization? That is currently the case with masks. There is a 1:1 correlation between mask description and organization.

To A:
My very personal impression is, that especially the knowledge about rogues and
so forth might turn out to be massively metagamed. I would consider it as a good
step into the right direction, if everyone always would carefully consider, what
his/her char really knows and what not.
Besides that, I have no answer to A except "we will find out".

To B:
Your char is as always allowed to use any knowledge your character has
gathered ingame (in a valid way). In other words, we are not giving
additional info on the ooc-channel for ingame use, and we are not asking you
to deny or ignore knowledge you have gathered ingame (in a valid way).

(A small hint to EX-Rogues: The information that was passed to you on guild
leave is still a binding rule)

Love

Louis

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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#26 Post by ferranifer » Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:08 pm

Thanks for answering my questions.
louis wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:40 pm
louis wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:43 pm As a logical consequence, any attempt, from a characters perspective, to quantify
the population of Forostar or the population of individual groups can always be
traced back to a misunderstanding of this very central aspect of game lore.
Howdy. This statement is official and requires no amendments.
Are you saying that the OP is now officially a ruling?
If you think that your guid mechanics need to be changed
to support that approach in a better way, report it please.
What about guilds with IC member's lists? Skald and Alchemist portraits for example? Are those not comprehensive? Should they be changed?

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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#27 Post by Zehren » Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:13 pm

I dislike the approach here.
  1. Point 2,3,4 boil down to what should be common-sense stuff
  2. Point 1 means you can no longer tell the names of any of your guild members (the guild is a subgroup of forostar)
  3. Point 1 means you can no longer tell how many you are teaming with (a team is a subgroup)
  4. Point 1 means you can no longer tell the names of anyone you know the names of (the subgroup of forostar consisting of those people you know the names of)
  5. Point 1 makes all PC accomplishments meaningless IC because there's any amount of invisible NPCs we never hear of who have accomplished as much and more.
It's very weird and flies in the face of the typical approach of RPGs being about the PCs.
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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#28 Post by Zehren » Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:22 pm

Zehren wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:13 pm
  1. Point 2,3,4 boil down to what should be common-sense stuff
They also leave context-decisions open to interpretation for the most part, which means problems based on differences in what's sensible or not there... are bound to continue to happen anyway.

All in all, this looks like a high-cost (making the game very weird to relate to) low-payoff approach to me.
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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#29 Post by Delia » Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:16 am

Players using masks and disguises have an interest in having their masks and disguises be useful and functional, hence providing cover and granting deniability. Thus the common remark of "any number of similar characters of that race", one cannot assume.

But really, if this is the road we travel the one cannot assume the other party doesn't have a good reason to suspect. Given there is an undefined number of invisible characters roaming around, someone of them probably might have seen the disguise slip off or has witnesses the putting on of disguise itself. One cannot assume there was not such an NPC. Perhaps this guy tipped the Crusader off? One cannot assume it did not happen. And so forth.

I am not trying to be extra cheeky and annoying here. I am just saying both sides can play the assumption game until the forum is in full flames again. Which will come to pass sooner or later over this subject.

So what to do?
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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#30 Post by Zehren » Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:32 am

Delia wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:16 am But really, if this is the road we travel the one cannot assume the other party doesn't have a good reason to suspect. Given there is an undefined number of invisible characters roaming around, someone of them probably might have seen the disguise slip off or has witnesses the putting on of disguise itself. One cannot assume there was not such an NPC. Perhaps this guy tipped the Crusader off? One cannot assume it did not happen. And so forth.
Avoiding any such "usage" of "powerful invisible NPCs" is part of why I think invisible NPC mages are a very bad idea. "An invisible NPC mage did whatever powerful magic is convenient for me/excuses some unique thingamabob...". Indeed, avoiding all such scenarios is why I think it best to operate as if the PCs and visible NPCs are simply better/stronger/faster/smarter/powerfuller/influentialer than invisible NPCs. This is the tongue-in-cheek opinion that "invisible NPCs ought to be peasants and the like". A "peasant and the like" invisible NPC population is enough to drive the reputation mechanics. It doesn't matter whether a humble woodsman or a knight in shining armour sees you cutting up cadavers. (Except maybe the latter would attack you physically instead of just the reputation...)

(The second part of why I think invisible NPC mages is a bad idea is the personal preference for mages to be rare (which also matches how the game has operated so far), and hence any good mage would be a known entity or a total hermit.)
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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#31 Post by Melendil » Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:34 am

Invisible NPCs contemplating magic:

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/31e6c5a6-a ... mVFPl.copy

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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#32 Post by Arsicas » Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:24 pm

I think the problem with the issue of masks/disguises comes down to people not agreeing on what constitutes evidence toward identifying X masked/disguised person. My gripe is when people use knowledge of mechanics—like only rogues can learn snatch, or that you can just appraise someone and tell they’re not a newbie—in order to identify someone. Or “Hey, this elf is the same height and weight as Aisa, so it must automatically be her!” These I do not consider valid means of figuring someone out. It should be based on a person’s behavior and interactions, not mechanics.

But people should also be able to add such and such together in an IC way. They shouldn’t have to play dumb because “That could have been any random elf!” But, of course, people have different opinions on what is valid information to use.

This is partly why I feel that in order to play a rogue successfully, you have to not be found out OOC to be a rogue. Because once you are, I feel that people’s OOC knowledge creeps into their character’s knowledge. Maybe it would be better if rogues were more “accepted” IC so that just knowing that someone is a rogue isn’t so damning. But then I also feel like once an unknown person commits an assassination, fingers will automatically be pointed at the known rogues because... they can backstab and disguise. Which is why I’d kind of like a clearer idea of what role rogues should play in the game.

I feel that there are things in game that suggest the rogues are an organization one can contact to do certain shady things—acquire a certain item or assassinate a certain person. But these are things that could be done anonymously via disguises. And the rogue can still have their upstanding persona as a cover. But if that persona is found out, does that mean that person is shunned from society and outlawed as part of an “evil” organization? I think there is some ambiguity as far as “Should people be aware that a rogue organization exists?” and “Should having certain skills link you to that rogue organization?” And maybe that’s what I’m hoping can be cleared up. As well as “Is it possible to be an out rogue and still exist in polite society?” If people do know of the existence of a rogue organization, how should that organization be viewed?
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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#33 Post by Laewyloth » Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:20 pm

Not that my $0.02 will really matter in this particular discussion...but the fact that ya'll are trying to thoroughly 'clarify' or undermine what -should- be a pretty simple ruling might speak a lot about the mentality here.

The ruling seems cut and dry, and that -any- specific use case, whether 'in favor of' or 'against' - using common sense and a desire to not drive people away should be applied:
  • There are "More people in Forostar who look like, behave like, smell like, and dress like person X" than you want to believe. This should mean that -any- observation you make has to be second-guessed without an *intimate* knowledge of who you're looking at. Yes, even people you know. Hell, gentleman-players, think about how different you look with or without a beard. Seeing "An elf, the same height as player X" when you don't have an introduce/remember string for that player is NOT a valid way to suspect anything about anybody.
  • Skills, magical auras, etc. are again, not indicative or who someone is. Why? Because for every pasty halfling, or silver-haired elf out there that pulsates when you cast a spell at 'em, or backstabs you on the road, there's X number of -identical- figures out there in Forostar. So, you need to have "an abundance of proof" to say definitively *who* someone is. What defines 'an abundance of proof'? Something more than anything mentioned in this thread, obviously!
  • Nobody in Forostar is special and 100% identifiable except perhaps via context clues, and maybe -super notable individuals like a queen-. But even then, isn't there that parable or story about the prince and the pauper?
Three people that I know of, have already sorta stopped playing Geas because folks refuse to have their world-view of Forostar shaken. I'm sorry that we now have -proof- that 1) Forostar is -not- a desolate, unpopulated wasteland, 2) nobody is special enough to be 'figured out' just because they're the same height, shape, or gender as someone else, and 3) even mages aren't special!

Just move on, if more of this comes up, report it. It probably -won't- because of various reasons, but if it does, and you're genuinely concerned or angsty about not being able to figure out who is playing what, or how dare that person not let you get retribution on them...I suggest "taking a break" and talking to the new PlayerArch!

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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#34 Post by Delia » Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:39 am

Best way to grant rogues anonymity they crave is to put the rogue skills out there for everyone to learn. That is the best blanket cover there ever could be. Other way to address disguises could be removing them completely, which is not ideal. One way could be to reduce combat use of disguise. Make it much easier to spot disguise in a prolonged combat or that it simply degrades fast during high stress activity(combat). Make use of masks instead for combat, that way people know oh dang, the assassins are out, now I know to whom I need to whimper to in the big bad organization in order not to get offed.

Which completely lacks in the current model. IC it is a widely known fact that rogues do exist and what their methods are. Sure exact details are missing as there is no front for them for the rest of the game to interact with. It is as if it was setup to drive a spike between the playerbase. I mean, this is not a new thing. Every couple of years this issue pops up, people get mad at each other and some people regrettably stop playing. Whatever the vague rules are, the room for interpretation is still huge. The disguised can always say foul play because the different between foul play and legit spotting is thinner than paper thin. It often leaves the observer feeling dumb as no matter the evidence, it can always called foul. As such very little trust can exist between the two and as such the problem will persists and fester no matter how much finger pointing happens(which actually just speeds up the festering)

The big rogue problem is the secrecy. Secrets do no last long and forcibly holding to them just brings a painful game. There are also mechanical secrets that would probably rile up the playerbase if they were widely known. I am not sure if they are. Anyhoo, the big thing rogues need for a healthy game is coming out to be accountable for their actions as an organization. An organization rest of the players can truly interact with.

Anyhoo, ramble off. Just making observations of things that have happened again and again and again and again over the 15+ years I have been on / off in Geas.
Last edited by Delia on Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#35 Post by Zehren » Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:34 am

Laewyloth wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:20 pm Not that my $0.02 will really matter in this particular discussion...but the fact that ya'll are trying to thoroughly 'clarify' or undermine what -should- be a pretty simple ruling might speak a lot about the mentality here.

The ruling seems cut and dry, and that -any- specific use case, whether 'in favor of' or 'against' - using common sense and a desire to not drive people away should be applied:
louis wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:43 pm Hello people,
we have been discussing the general topic of masks and disguises amongst the
wizards, and we thought it might be a good idea to share our thoughts and
approaches with you.

After [extensive] discussion with you, these guidelines likely might become
part of the game rules of GEAS.
You seem to be reading it as a ruling, several others seem to be reading it as an invitation to discussion.

I'd be glad to have a wizard stance on the rest of your post, though. If that's indeed how Forostar is meant to be (despite what most oldbies I've talked with seem to think/relate to the game), I'd like to know so I can stop all misguided investments of efforts and time :)
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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#36 Post by ferranifer » Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:11 am

I'm quoting Lae, but this is a general response. I'm only using his arguments as a springboard without meaning any personal attack.

Laewyloth wrote:
  • There are "More people in Forostar who look like, behave like, smell like, and dress like person X" than you want to believe. This should mean that -any- observation you make has to be second-guessed without an *intimate* knowledge of who you're looking at. Yes, even people you know. Hell, gentleman-players, think about how different you look with or without a beard. Seeing "An elf, the same height as player X" when you don't have an introduce/remember string for that player is NOT a valid way to suspect anything about anybody.
This is absolute non-sense and awfully convenient for disguise users. You'd be hard pressed to find that in planet Earth. It's easy to be fooled into thinking someone you've never met is someone else, but it's incredibly hard (and a truly rare and difficult skill) to fool someone that already knows you. At the very least a dramatic change in behavior would be needed. Disguise strategies work best when used to blend in and disappear in a crowd, not when trying to be flamboyant and outstandish. And worst of all, nobody is ever going to agree on what "an abundance of proof" means. This argument is a recipe for OOC conflict. Regardless, this attacks a core element of any RPG, and that is that PCs are remarkable. Nobody wants to play an average Joe (and in fact, in Geas, nobody does). I second Zehren's sentiments about this. Making PCs be just another regular Joe is a slippery slope to even worse, even more contrived anti-accountability arguments.

Laewyloth wrote:
  • Skills, magical auras, etc. are again, not indicative or who someone is. Why? Because for every pasty halfling, or silver-haired elf out there that pulsates when you cast a spell at 'em, or backstabs you on the road, there's X number of -identical- figures out there in Forostar. So, you need to have "an abundance of proof" to say definitively *who* someone is. What defines 'an abundance of proof'? Something more than anything mentioned in this thread, obviously!
Skills that cannot be learned anywhere, that have historically been used by thieves and that are in fact an act of observable thievery should indeed be grounds to believe someone has gotten special training and/or belongs to some shady thievery-related group. We can argue forever about if backstab is shady or not, but mugging is just straight out theft even outside of any game-mechanical framework. The exclusivity of access to these skills ratifies this approach. Even if they are learnable by other means, the argument still holds because access to those means is tightly controlled by .. a shady organization. Or should we stop considering iron will a special thing you can only learn in certain guilds? Or chi? Or casting miracles? Why exactly do rogue skills need special treatment? Why do rogues need special protection nobody else in the game is afforded?

Again, a lot of OOC metagaming effort required for people to blatantly ignore these facts that even a 10 year old would put together. This "rogue" organization might be very large, or many small organizations, but it definitely exists and it's beyond the reach of the common folk, coz it if was within their reach, then we would definitely know everything about them. See, if there are infinite eyes out there, there are also infinite spies. It's a slippery slope.

Magical auras only add more irrefutable proof. Are we really asked to assume that there is an infinite amount of darkelves out there with exactly the same jewelry (including the gem in the ring), the same magical items and so much more magic glow in their persona than any mage has ever seen? This is asking the players to play dumb in the face of evidence.

Laewyloth wrote:
  • Nobody in Forostar is special and 100% identifiable except perhaps via context clues, and maybe -super notable individuals like a queen-. But even then, isn't there that parable or story about the prince and the pauper?
This is a repetition of point one and makes no sense in the context of the dynamics of the game. ANY remarkable adventurer will gain fame and be known quickly. In Geas, nobody becomes notorious at anything without a huge time investment and exposure. Someone new showing up showcasing "heroic" levels of expertise at anything means they either just arrived from some other land or were training in secret in some sort of specific training school (e.g. The Elvandar Guard or The Assassins Guild). Not only would thousands of invisible NPCs have seen them before and able to recognize them, but also they would have made ripples for themselves in boards, scalp charts and social dynamics way before they'd have reached any serious level of expertise.

If a specific disguised rogue is posing as a newbie, that's a good and sensible cover and something every player of the game would be happy to interact with. If a disguised rogue is a fully equipped master of weapons, stealth and thievery, that's not a nobody.


All of these points as you described them only make sense in a world where the population at large has stopped caring and looking and are just straight out dumbly victimized. Mechanically, these are all shoehorned arguments to justify the existence of and protection afforded by the disguise mechanic. Arguments that require the entire playerbase to walk on eggshells and second guess themselves. In real world terms, this is called gaslighting:
Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse where a person or group makes someone question their sanity, perception of reality, or memories. People experiencing gaslighting often feel confused, anxious, and unable to trust themselves.
Why are we talking about rogues in a thread about disguise? Because disguise is how rogues avoid accountability and bring these arguments to OOC every single time. This ruling (or suggestion for a ruling) would not even have been necessary if it wasn't for disguise. Masks are way less troublesome and have rarely caused issues in 20 years of history of the game. The main difference between masks and disguise? personal accountability (you can immediately see that someone is in fact masked) and group accountability (masks belong to organizations).

There are two things that disguise protects:
  • The ability to play an alter ego. (<- This is cool)
  • The ability to act without consequences. (<- This is incredibly bad. No multiplayer environment should provide this)
I dig the alter-ego RP, I really do. I'd love to find a way for the game to support that without having this cyclic argument every few years. For 20 years, the game has struggled with the design of disguise because it is antisocial and an incredibly easy mechanic to argue pro and against. In a game like this, imho, there is no place for constant, failproof un-accountability.

As I've said many times in many forms: make rogues accountable for their actions, like everybody else is.
Disguise is a band-aid to the real root issue here, and that is that rogues don't feel like they have any space to move in without 100% failproof cover.


Finally, there is a clear separation IMHO between the function of NPCs and PCs. I like the analogy to movies and theatre. While you're fighting the city guards, there might be a hundred people around you, but none of them matter functionally. They are atrezzo, dress-up, tools for roleplay and acting. What matters is what the main actors are doing. It's a huge disservice to a RPing game to expect players to constantly care about the backdrop nobodies in detriment of the main act. PCs should be heroes. A few NPCs should be and are important, e.g. Gwenalena, a few social structures should be defined, e.g. Elvandar is Taniel town, but the everyday events of the game should be written by, acted by and performed by players.

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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#37 Post by Melendil » Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:01 pm

There are "More people in Forostar who look like, behave like, smell like, and dress like person X" than you want to believe. This should mean that -any- observation you make has to be second-guessed without an *intimate* knowledge of who you're looking at. Yes, even people you know. Hell, gentleman-players, think about how different you look with or without a beard. Seeing "An elf, the same height as player X" when you don't have an introduce/remember string for that player is NOT a valid way to suspect anything about anybody.
This would, in theory and as described, also apply to undisguised and remembered characters.

Code: Select all

Melendil kicks you in the shin.
"I accuse Melendil of assault!"
"That wasn't me, it was someone who looked just like me, you just assumed it was me".
Only the game mechanic of introduction/remembering is giving you 100% certainty, at least if telling individuals is as difficult as your point suggests. I think that is probably too loose to be practical.

As I mentioned earlier in this topic, I'd be in favour of a system where identifying an individual isn't instant. It's instead based on how much attention the person draws to themselves, your characters awareness and how much you're paying attention to them. If Melendil ran through your room, you should get "an elf" or perhaps "a silver haired elf" enters and exits, especially if the visibility isn't great (forests for example). It would also make sense that it's possible you just won't notice someone enter a large outdoor area or a very busy/crowded area (like a marketplace or a busy inn.

Masks and disguises could then be used to increase the difficulty of identifying a person. The more they emote, speak, and act, the more chances you have to identify them

This could then be used to remove ambiguity about whether you know who a character is. If you see a name, you're 100% certain who it is, though this shouldn't preclude people having strong (perhaps false) hunches. If you're well known to run about in a devil mask and cause bother, then it's fair for someone to assume someone running about in a devil mask causing bother is you, even if it's not. The dark ages were highly superstitious and prejudiced and things like this hinged more on the status of people making the accusation rather than evidence. If the queen says you stole her dress, it would be unthinkable for the court to disagree even if all the evidence flies in the face of that accusation. It's not fair, but the world isn't, least of all the sort of world Geas is.

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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#38 Post by Arsicas » Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:49 pm

ferranifer wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:11 am Disguise is a band-aid to the real root issue here, and that is that rogues don't feel like they have any space to move in without 100% failproof cover.
I have honestly felt on my rogue that I can’t do anything involving engaging with other players as a rogue until I get disguise at a decent level because of the repercussions. I’ve always wanted to play that character as having a public persona and a rogue persona, but it seems like historically that is just too hard to maintain because once you get found out, your public persona is ruined.

It seems some people have suggested making rogues more open and less secret. But in this case, I feel like the public response to them would have to be more accepting. And I’m not sure that works when Crusaders and Taniels are meant to be so intolerant of evil, which thievery would likely be considered. But perhaps it would help to incorporate rogues more into the game and make them less paranoid about being found out.

Regarding masks vs. disguises, a mask might work to disguise identity so rogues could conduct some business anonymously but still be tied to the guild, except a lot of thievy stuff occurs in cities, so it wouldn’t work if you were automatically attacked for being masked. Thieves rely on blending into the crowd, whereas deathpriests expect to be recognized as deathpriests. I think your issue is just that people have been using disguise as a way to commit blatantly aggressive acts while insisting people have no way of knowing it was them? Maybe the idea of disguises not holding up in combat would work: separate acts of thievery requiring disguises from assassination attempts requiring masks. That way, you can stay anonymous when sneaking around and thieving or when engaging via roleplay as an alternate persona, but if you want to go after a hit, it’s tied to the guild so that people know who was responsible.
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Ioca
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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#39 Post by Ioca » Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:28 pm

Arsicas wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:49 pm I think your issue is just that people have been using disguise as a way to commit blatantly aggressive acts while insisting people have no way of knowing it was them?
Get the sense that this is the general sentiment amongst the wow-I-really-hate-rogues crowd, 'cept that the rogues had two active players in the past IRL year, and literally none now. There were probably a total of three whole acts of violence done upon characters by characters using disguises in the past year+, and only one that I know of resulted in anyone dying.

Edit -
Well, I take it back... There was a very briefly active rogue who attacked some people while wearing the bare minimum of a disguise, but they quit pretty quickly after causing a fuss.

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Re: Masks, disguises and how to handle them as a player

#40 Post by ferranifer » Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:46 pm

Ioca wrote:
Arsicas wrote: I think your issue is just that people have been using disguise as a way to commit blatantly aggressive acts while insisting people have no way of knowing it was them?
Get the sense that this is the general sentiment amongst the wow-I-really-hate-rogues crowd, 'cept that the rogues had two active players in the past IRL year, and literally none now. There were probably a total of three whole acts of violence done upon characters by characters using disguises in the past year+, and only one that I know of resulted in anyone dying.

Edit -
Well, I take it back... There was a very briefly active rogue who attacked some people while wearing the bare minimum of a disguise, but they quit pretty quickly after causing a fuss.
Three open acts of violence with no possible repercussions is more than what any other characters are afforded in 20 years. Exactly three times more. All of them in just one year. It's also more than what any other rogue has done before.

Your average character will commit zero acts of open violence against other characters in their entire character's history. Some people do aggress others and pay the consequences, they become either villains or heroes, depending on which lens you use. Nobody else but rogues get to act with impunity.

Someone being able to do that three times in one year completely unabashed is a very good example of the lack of any meaningful limits to the reach of what disguised people can do and is the core issue with disguise.

The amount you mention is also questionable, depending on what you consider violent. You're also under-representing the amount of power and freedom that you're afforded simply because people know you could act unhinged, even if you don't do it.

The game having few rogues is also a direct consequence of the guild's design and what the current rogues are doing. It's not by lack of people wanting to be rogues.
Ioca wrote: wow-I-really-hate-rogues crowd
It's underhanded stabs like this that poison the pool. I want rogues to exist, I played one of the original leaders of the Shadow Lurkers and have always wanted rogues to be a thing in the game. A lot of people commenting here have in fact played rogues. The issue is not the existence of rogues, it's how they are designed currently, starting with disguise, but there is quite a lot more there that doesn't belong in this thread.

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