Evil side

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lanyara
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Re: Evil side

#61 Post by lanyara » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:55 am

Hmm... I think one problem is the aura concept. Once your aura is bad, you more or less must have done an "evil" action. You probably can not worship Sathonys if your aura is good? Most areas are somewhat dominated by gods/religions already. It would just seem strange if someone with an evil aura would become judge of Elvandar.

What if Asador became a "neutral city" instead of a Sathonys-only city? How about other cities/areas? The moment the aura of someone is bad is the moment one has a tag attached "I am evil, please hurt me". You don't really need a "real" reason because "gods never make a mistake", so an evil aura automatically means that this is an evil person (from an IC point of view, or at the very least according to what the god demands of you, at least for a cleric. And if you are a good worshipper, and the cleric needs help, then of course you go over and help that cleric. Or help someone else who worships the same deity and together you go and slaughter the enemy, or at be extremily wary and watching what that other character does).

And in this situation, confrontation makes a lot more sense than to not harass this character. Or, if not confrontation, at least extreme distrust.

After all, at the very least, worshippers of enemy deities can easily act as spies or easily lie to you, and it would be a bit too naive to allow a Trojan horse into your group or close to you, especially if the aura system attaches such a flag to "don't trust him".

Perhaps all areas should try to strive to become less exclusive though? It seems extremely exclusively and constrained, without really much room to "act" more freely. If areas are less dominated by gods/clerics perhaps there would be more room to engage without being the biggest PvP threat.

Of course, with the aura system it is a bit difficult ... hmm
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Re: Evil side

#62 Post by luminier » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:37 pm

What do you propose the Crusaders/Goodies base their opinions of people on? If the aura system isn't right, well we can't exactly be around to see everything and we don't have the ability to check people ourselves anymore (for whatever reason).

Then again, it doesn't seem to be that hard to find out who did what. I can't remember the last time I asked a cleric to check someones karma for me. I just kinda get by without pretty nicely.
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Re: Evil side

#63 Post by lanyara » Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:33 pm

Eww... Long note, Careful!

I am trying to connect auras to the law system (and once you have the "evil" tag, you are quite obviously an evil character because of that tag alone)

In OOC parlance, the good gods appreciate if good characters do good deeds by engaging/encountering anyone with an evil aura. (Or at the very least, be extremely suspicious of these people). Possibly the evil gods appreciate the opposite route, as in the evil characters trying to weaken good characters or fighting them, and so on. In short - this is all very conflict intense.

Now, once someone does an evil deed/action, and does not "compensate" this with good deeds, an evil aura seems to be permanently attached to that character. From this point you are basically an evil character.

From how I understand it there aren't any really "neutral" actions. Or in other words, only good and evil actions can be done, and if you are neutral you usually "balanced" these actions in a way (or perhaps did nothing and fell back to this default?).

So someone being neutral usually shuffles between these two sides slightly, or just sticks to one side eventually and "stops" being really neutral.

Bear with me for now here... :D

To me this seems as if there aren't any real gray zones possible that way.

You are either good, or bad, but you can hardly stay neutral because the system would try to shift you into either a good or bad direction constantly (if you do certain deeds, and as a result your karma changes).
A good example would be "neutral" characters right now: who of the examples you can give would be really "neutral"? To me it seems as if they more or less closely fall into the good or evil side when they do specific actions.

Or they really do absolutely nothing but doing absolutely nothing seems a bit ... boring. Hmm.

I am not really thinking about crusaders/rangers good/evil guilds or characters here actually. Sooner or later, I think it will be somewhat obvious who really is evil or good (or "neutral") anyway.

I am more thinking about areas here, such as Asador. Or let's say Elvandar. Or ... Arborea. All areas have their ways to deal with evil and good folks (focus on religion here).

Some areas seem to allow more religious freedoms than others, some areas are more restrictive. The aura system, or more accurately all characters who can discover auras, basically reveal the tag attached on a character swiftly, easily and quite transparently.

It's actually pretty funny: evil characters are sometimes EXTREMELY scared of having their auras checked. That can often scare them away faster than a smite miracle or similar stuff ... and when a character runs away from an aura check, well ... I guess the reason is pretty obvious ... if you have to hide something, run away... :D

A good character can NEVER be wrong here though - when you see someone with a bad aura, you can be ABSOLUTELY sure that this person has done something evil. Your god can never be wrong. If your god somehow tells you or reveals to you that this person has an evil aura, you can be sure that this MUST be correct. That's at least how I understand it.

And once you have an evil character before you and are a good and caring character, why should you care about that evil character too much? I mean, as far as his evil wicked ways are concerned. Sure you can try to pull him over to the good side, make him stop being evil, or you just hack him to pieces if it fails, or you simply watch what he does carefully.

There is absolutely no real reason to be lenient with evil characters, no matter whether they are strong or weak. They have such an aura tag attached, and the tag will attract attention (and problems). And they will easily fall into the old pattern anyway, by joining the evil or good side or at least by stopping being evil (or sometimes being good).

It just seems a lot easier to be pushed into some specific direction (good or evil)
here, and I think this heavily reduces which playing styles are possible. You can't really "hide" if you have an evil aura.

But as said ... this is not so much about auras alone, this is about areas and these areas being in control of deities actually, even if only indirectly.

Asador has shiplines with Arborea (and Bandama or Cumberly, I always mix these up). As a town it seems to be under control of Sathonys, an evil god. I believe Sathonys really would dislike those coming to his zone of interest who have a good aura (perhaps an aura earned by destroying his undeads ... ? ).
Why would the Asadorians accept people who got an aura by slaughtering undeads?

But if auras are so exclusive then it means that characters will only have a few areas to actually visit and do something there. It also isn't really possible to hide your aura as said before. Once you act "suspiciously", sooner or later you will be revealed anyway, unless perhaps you stay away from most other characters (but then you can't sozialize in any way either, and I am sure that sooner or later you WILL want to interact in some way, unless you like to play alone forever, which seems pretty odd to have in a MUD I guess... )

This conflict of good/evil transcends down into the areas, with the auras attached to characters. I just don't think that this way you actually can have characters with evil auras walking into areas dominated or controlled by those with good auras. Not even disguise works seriously because everyone will be so suspicious. There just doesn't seem to be a place to hide "who you are". Sooner or later, your allegiance will just be obvious.

Even in the distant past, it was quite obvious who was good and who was evil ... somehow. Now it just is even more obvious, because you can rather easily find out.

I mean, Sathos always tried to kill someone so one could state that they always were evil.

But with the tag, you will automatically fall into the box of good or evil (or perhaps neutral), and it is absolutely predictable what you have done or can do because of the way it works.

So, about areas ...

I think it is kind of bad to have areas become too exclusive for a single deity (more or less) and automatically exclude other deities. Of course it often makes sense to do so, both for IC and OOC reasons and also because gods are in some way in opposition to each other (more or less... at least the way preaching works right now means that you can convert worshippers of other deities).

I mean... if you are a god, you probably want more followers. And if you exclude the other gods, all the better - more followers to you, I guess.

But a good example for access restriction, IMHO, are the Sathonys insects.

On the one hand the insects kill guards in Arborea. On the other hand, you have shipping routes right into Asador (!) from Arborea, and Asador is often used as an attack platform for Satho priests (the shiplines). Perhaps there are economic reasons for having these shiplines but ... to me this seems a little bit crazy for the Asral side. If someone is attacking me, why would I offer him ship routes for his attacks or ways to weaken my area? Or put more precisely, if insects kill human guards in Arborea, why the heck would I want to befriend the priests of this insect god if I worship a deity that is in a way an enemy to Sathonys? That seems like ... crazy. Of course, Asral is a "neutral evil" deity, but I would be totally mad to go and HELP those that weaken my area in any way or allow them to kill potential Asral worshippers (if I am an Asral cleric... at least an old school Asral cleric)

I really think it boils down to the way the gods work. By being extremely exclusive, and partially quite predictable and auras revealing what one did in a broad sense ... it seems as if you can never hide. And areas will remain extremely exclusive, which sometimes leads to other problems (complaining that once you are outlawed you lose access to guilds and so on and so forth)
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Re: Evil side

#64 Post by Brand » Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:20 am

I would like to refer back to some of the earlier posts on this thread. Go back and read them, those of you who have joined the game in the last year or two. One point brought up is the tendency back in the day that a super Sath like Jezz could wander around somewhat openly, could happen upon some of the younger 'good' characters and there wasnt this sudden scream out over the lines for a Crusader to come to the rescue. Why? Because the 'evil' characters were not very likely to just start fighting and killing these characters that were much younger then them. In fact it was not an unusual sight to see Brand as a Packmaster of the Rangers having a civil conversation with a Sath priest and then a short time later answering a call to help an ally against that same priest. This whole idea of kill on sight did not exist and it made for some great RP.
Maybe some disagree but I say that IRL and in game both that it is ok to have a respect for your enemy that allows there to be some restraint against just spending all day trying to ambush one another and PK.
A thought to mull over....PvP does not always imply PK. There are a few threads on this forum that seek alternatives to the endless events of PK but none of these ideas will bear fruit until the players realize that there is a bounty of RP greatness and fun to be had by not always trying to kill your foe. When the Order first came into being, Mordain and Shadowca eventually hunted Brand down and killed him, but until after a bevy of RP that I really wish I had logged. Some of the best times I have had playing were spent RP'ing with the baddies of the game.
Anyhow, just think on it...

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Re: Evil side

#65 Post by ganandorf » Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:33 am

You know what I've thought about it. And I've tried to do something about this. Infact I even talked to the packmaster. But then suddenly there were alot of us around for one week, and we raided a few places. This is what became of that viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1218

And now we're usually attacked on sight. Or I'll attack and bring someone back to asador. Reason I can't stay and chat is because I'm afraid a crusader or another good guy is going to be walking around. Usually there's a few around goodies around, and once one person finds out, everyone's looking after me.
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Re: Evil side

#66 Post by Delia » Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:24 am

RP opportunities with the evil side are regrettably few indeed. The most memorable for me being having Delia suffering from plague and just about dying from previous wounds all the while trying to recuperate and brewing a potion by the campfire while a gruesome masked human walks in and...

They talked. Obviously it would have been easy enough for even a newbie to take on Delia at that point but the situation was much memorable this way. RP with the evil side is almost impossible to do unless you happen to be alone and you know there are not any of your friends nearby. Either you end up being suspected and interrogated for this and that or your friend attacks the evil guy and that is that.

I mostly enjoy PvP that does not end in PK. I am happy enough to just teach a lesson or exchange blows where the victor is clear enough. It is just hard to realize one's own defeat when recuperating can be quite fast and you can start attacking with renewed vigour. When you've hold your ground against the same opponent four or fives times in a short period of time makes you think when enough is enough. That said, hopefully I can(and have) recognize Delia's defeats as well. Having played Delia as "god none" for a good while made her value her life quite the bit, but then again it is not always that easy nor simple when the player behind the character gets excited/bloodthirsty.
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Re: Evil side

#67 Post by ganandorf » Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:30 am

It's not really anybody's fault, that's just where roleplay's taken the good guys. I myself would just prefer some open interactions, obviously not with crusaders or taniel clerics , but with the other general population. Even if i avoid the towers, if even one person gets away I get a whole force coming at me. Not to mention the people that are quick to start a fight, alone, I often stand no chance :( .

edit: The way i worded it makes it sound like im not at fault either. This isn't true. I'm pretty quick to attack sometimes too, but i like to think im lenient in that i dont kill unless it's a big fight.
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Re: Evil side

#68 Post by lanyara » Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:57 am

But engaging someone evil makes absolutely sense for an extremely good character (if you can pull off a victory). Satho priests are usually outlawed in the good areas so they will be driven out of these areas usually. If you don't drive them out, they have this habit of killing NPCs or ambushing others or setting up undeads that attack people. In fact, from an IC point of view it makes absolute sense to have a "weak" Satho side because weak Sathos can less likely go and kill NPCs, ambush people and all get away with it.

The main difference between back then and now is that it just seems to happen a lot faster that Sathos are driven out. And also that the individual power level between characters seems to have become wider. Back then a single satho was extremely powerful. Nowadays, they usually need undeads to stand a chance.
(Or they require ambushes, or help from The Order guys, but honestly The Order guys are even sleepier than Satho clerics)

This fast attacking, I believe, is due to watchtowers mostly, but probably also because of almost all NPCs (patrols) attacking Sathos on sight. Once a NPC fights, or a patrol guy is missing, is a clear indication that at least someone is or was fighting them or causing problems. (And in pre-watchtower times you have had Sathos heavily rely on darkness-slay combo including looting of guild items. There isn't that much one without cleric powers can do against the slay miracle.)

So conflict, at least for those with a zero tolerance policy, makes a lot of sense.

I can understand that playing an evil is quite difficult that way, but everything is setup in such a conflict already - the whole karma system, the agenda of certain guilds (not only crusaders ... can Sathos ever be peaceful at all by definition?), and the way how the god system actually works. Plus Sathos usually sooner or later kill something... it's hard to not react when a Satho slaughters guards a few days before. And the NPCs who are killed also report who attacked them ... the game simply is heavily stacked in favour of finding out who killed or attacked someone, including even the time and amount of attacks (this I don't like... why is it a 100% sure way to count the amount of attacks someone did? Why does every NPC know this in-game? Do they all have a super memory... reminds me of a perfect AI ... anyway, off topic here)
I'm pretty quick to attack sometimes too, but i like to think im lenient in that i dont kill unless it's a big fight.
From an IC point of view, killing a good character is no real problem. If you kill a somewhat smaller crusader, that still gets to be a hero because he tried to slay the ultimate villain (you, the Satho cleric)

And you just ress to come back again anyway if you died.

Then also, think of some big event like raiding Elvandar. Such an event carries huge implications with itself. I think it can not be expected to be lenient with any character who kills elves that way? Crusaders just are more dedicated than your "usual" good guy.

Let's picture another scenario. No crusaders. Back then there was the Legion. They also fought Sathos, but other guilds were also a lot more involved. The crusaders simply got more options available than other guilds here. What if noone would care if NPCs are killed? I mean, Satho priests would still be outlaws in areas when they kill NPCs, but what about those player characters who can act against outlaws? To me it seems as if a Satho priest has no alternative at all to play differently. Sure you can go the route of becoming stronger and stronger just for the sake of being stronger to pull through with your PvP, but the good side just has to wait a bit before the evil side is less active again and then the good guys again prevail here.
Having played Delia as "god none" for a good while made her value her life quite the bit, but then again it is not always that easy nor simple when the player behind the character gets excited/bloodthirsty.
Here is another thing. Delia is one of those few ancient characters in the game still awake. Others are more or less on a hiatus, or sleepy ... (the good old godharks team). Jezz seems to be gone as well. (In the sense that you will rarely see the Jezz character at all anywhere, and once outside Asador I am sure being masked alone just draws attention). I don't think they can stay on the crossroads because the patrol npc will attack them, block exits, and once you fight the patrol I am sure this again draws interest in PvP besting ...

Now, how many epic characters are good, and how many epic characters are evil? And how many of these continue to play over a long time?

In my opinion the reward for playing an evil character is a lot smaller than playing a good/neutral character. You have a very small niche of what you can do as an evil. It's not only having no access to good zones (because you get to be attacked there).

The whole good world absolutely hates you if you are evil alone.
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Re: Evil side

#69 Post by ganandorf » Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:58 pm

I'll be logging on more often on Ganon I'm thinking. Perhaps It will be interesting again.
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Re: Evil side

#70 Post by lanyara » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:47 pm

Last man standing!!!
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Re: Evil side

#71 Post by jezz » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:11 pm

Wow, I was told my name appeared again at the forum and it's damn true ;)

I'd like to talk a bit about what has been said, and before I continue, I'd like to say that maybe things have changed a lot in code terms since I was gone, so correct me if I say something wrong.

The rewards for being evil are smaller. Very difficult topic to aproach. For sure, the "coded" rewards for being evil are not smaller than a goodie or neutral. We got our share of the world, and maybe even more, since if you want to explore the Taniel Temple, soon or later you will raid it :)

Of course, you don't have access to the custom shop, alchemist guild, scribe guild and some more, but there are ways to overcome that.

In terms of RP, is where you really need to work your character. Yes, some time ago Jezz was able to walk around and interact with other players. In Legion times the chats between he and the rest of the MUD were frequent, and so were the fights, but you could enjoy the balance between them. We had the power (and by the power, don't forget "we" spent A LOT of time playing to make our players stronger and wiser in terms of MUD knowledge) to do so.

Then legion is destroyed, and crusaders appear. And suddenly you see a new guild has appeared that is designed to fight you. Your enemies start to shrug off your miracles and things like that. Not to mention the shinning sign saying "ally with taniels forever!" that came with them.

And step by step, things got worse. They got watchtowers to check the whole MUD if set properly, we got our cheap and handy skulls removed (but got something in exchange, its use debatable since I didn't test much), and some of us started to become tired.

Tired not of the MUD, since i still think GEAS is the best, by far, of all the MUDs I have played, both by code, playerbase and the wizards and admins, but tired of the flow of events leading to make our life harder.

I really think we overpushed ourselves when building and playing our characters, which lead to think that a satho was like a superguild that made you nearly invincible by joining, but by now, reading some of the posts at the forum, I can see some people have already realized that's not the case.

The truth, is that when someone makes you work harder for less than the rest, for a long period of time, a big question appears in your head?

"Do they think evil side is here in the MUD as a feature?"

That's why I left playing, because I felt like Jezz was being thought as a feature after the coding of Eal-Deliah. You get stronger? We make them stronger? You start to control a zone? We make that zone harder to controle.

The result is Shadowca, Kaspars and Aragog (some remarkable names) leaving by this reason, among others.

So if you want to be an evil, make sure you're the type of person that beats God of War in all the modes leading to God Mode and still would want 100 modes harder to beat it again and again ;)

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Re: Evil side

#72 Post by luminier » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:17 pm

Play Jezz again.
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Re: Evil side

#73 Post by isengoo » Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:49 am

Just wanted to say I agree entirely with poJezz.

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Re: Evil side

#74 Post by ganandorf » Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:53 am

So do I, and unfortunately I'm not the type of person who would play god of war on all modes :|
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Re: Evil side

#75 Post by luminier » Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:22 am

I don't get it. Why can other people have wars on and off while the Crusaders and the Sathonites can't? Oh right, you guys eff shit up too much. Well, promise to keep things to a certain area, and we're good.

You want areas? Buy em.
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Re: Evil side

#76 Post by lanyara » Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:25 am

<3 notes of PO Jezz
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Re: Evil side

#77 Post by Olrane » Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:31 am

We miss you, Jezz!!

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Re: Evil side

#78 Post by isengoo » Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:47 pm

Lumi, what Jezz was getting at is that when you play evil side you feel more like a feature for the goodies than an actual character.

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Re: Evil side

#79 Post by isengoo » Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:59 pm

You know, I think what would help is if Asador was open to everyone, and then they just outlawed all Crusaders/Taniel Clerics/whoever else they deem unworthy.

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Re: Evil side

#80 Post by Skragna » Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:19 pm

I agree. Would also give Sathonites a chance to talk to people without snatching them away. Though they could still do it.

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