Thieves den

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Blizt
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Thieves den

#1 Post by Blizt » Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:15 am

I am really not sure if I should be writing this note or not, but I am going too
since someone else suggested it to me also. Everyone knows the current situation with the thieves on GEAS, and how part of their Den was found.
I am just curious as to how, any good character can have any viable Roleplay excuse to NOT want to find out more, or raid the guild. Instead, when it was found, good characters stopped logging on, and more thieves appeared. Some players of thieves started talking to me oocly when we found it, saying we shouldnt be looking for it, because their arent even any active thieves so they werent the ones stealing and blah blah blah, but as soon as word got out, I noticed alot more "suspected" thieves logging on, and alot less good characters. Also I noticed when the good characters logged on, they pretty much ordered their guilds to not even look for the thieves. I am just curious as to what kind of roleplay excuse they can give for this. Instead of giving an excuse icly, they just told people not to look for it, then they were gone again.
I probably shouldnt add this part either, but I am going too.....There are rumours saying its this way, because too many wizards/players/everyone else want it this way, and they dont want the thieves to be discovered and blah blah blah, but those are just rumours, I know. I just dont see any reason why a good character can allow this, and I know I should handle it icly, but its hard when those people dont log on too much to tell you why, or refuse to tell you why.
Just curious as to what the stance on this is, because I have been insulted alot oocly by alot of thieves since we found that den, and I didnt report it, because I thought having a known thieves den, is better than having a thieves den full of deleted players. Just curious, because if players are going to get so touchy about it, we can just ignore the fact they exist.
This isnt just my opinion, but opinion of others who are also curious, I was reluctant to write this note, but I want to know, and so do some others.

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#2 Post by jezz » Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:30 am

I was wondering too, if some thieves' ooc whinning would affect the course of the thieves' discover. Looking at Blizt's notes, I think it affected indeed.

I just can say that I can't understand too how taniels can allow thieves to exist, knowing they live under their city, but that can be maybe because I lack ic info. Anyway, I'd recommend everyone and specially Blizt to never forget that people has a lot of alts, and they play them depending on how much fun they can get with them... so I think that's what happened with thieves.

I'd also liked to add that I know some thieves who really liked this situation and acted in consequence, defending themselves rather than whinning oocly and spending their lifes in a mine or at the crossroads.

But that's just my oppinion anyway, although this is the first time I agree with poBlizt on something :P

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#3 Post by stilgar » Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:36 am

Seemingly we think the same way about things like that.. with poBlizt.. I made my comment in the RP section, he did it here.. don't want to repeat myself.. just waiting for your opinion :wink:
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#4 Post by Blizt » Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:37 am

Yeah, I like the fact some thievs responded icly too. They acted very ......well , whatever you wanna call it, they killed me ;)
I am sorry though, but thieves are constantly stealing from players. If they didnt want to be discovered so they could continue their "fun" maybe stealing from players daily was a bad idea?

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#5 Post by tarlon » Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:25 am

I don´t know where the problem is if you want to raid it that do so, why not?
nearly every guild was raided. satho guild and Asral guild lots of time. legion very often some players used to raid shaolins guild as a daily trip.
Okay taniels guild with there unbreakable door not sure if it´s still unbreakable as well as crusaders with their near to unbreakable door not sure if someone already manage to break through. Why not thieves guild? where is the problem? There is no reason at all to listen to any OOC whining just simply ignore all those damned SHIT. Kick there asses have fun and play fair.
And don´t whine if you find your lockers looted assasinated or loose some items witch most are easy to replace anyway expect a few ;-)

Olaf po Tarlon and another char

p.s. ignore any OOC whinnings and play fair. Sometimes it isn´t necessary to kill someone over and over and again but sometimes you have to.Dying in geas isn´t that harsch anymore you don´t loose any XP as you did before. And most Items are replaceable. Even though sometimes looting is just unecessary if you killed him again and again. Tarlon never looted a corpse. And had lots of player fights in the past. And the enemy never looted him as far as i remember

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#6 Post by Blizt » Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:31 am

Well, Tarlon, you told me you didnt read my note, but just posted a reply, maybe you should read the note, because its obvious you are missing the whole point of it ;)

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#7 Post by tarlon » Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:43 am

I didn´t read your post as i read i thought it is the he we can´t raid the guild for ooc reason post.
If guys simply log in with other chars and try to influence enemies of other chars of him that sucks and i would consider it cheating or at least abusing.
Either don´t log in while your other char is in trouble or play accordingly.
Olaf po tarlon and another

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#8 Post by Blizt » Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:51 am

Well, my main argument is this: Thieves have constantly looted and stolen from players since I have played this mud. I know some thieves are taniel followers and I know the background story of the thieves too, someone filled me in on it, trying to discourage IC actions against them. Honestly, I think its awful roleplay for thieves to be raiding lockers in elvandar then, or stealing from other Taniel followers and so forth, but it happens. Why? Because they have thought they are always untouchable and wouldnt be discovered, and that also seems to be the general belief too. Its pretty annoying to get robbed over and over and over everyday and not be able to do anything about it.
You want to talk about players fun and such, what about the players that are constantly stolen from and cant retaliate for it? You think they have fun?

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#9 Post by golub » Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:30 pm

Just to make some things clear for my part. I have only one character (the others I had deleted) and I came back to Geas from like.. a year of absence.

I think that the situation as it is, is just fun (finally some action!). If I would have to guess, I don't think most people want it to necessarily remain hidden. Even if, to my best knowledge, such a thing as finding & raiding a guild is carried out completely IC. If someone disagrees OOC, so be it. If the wizards didn't want it to ever be found, I think it would have been mechanisms which would prevent anyone from entering for sure or something mentioned about it in the rules.

If I'm reading correctly between your lines, you're saying that some people logged on with a second character to undermine someone's effort or to take an advantage. I don't know what happend, but I think it is bad that such a thing ends up in OOC public. I think we should all assume that noone does that, and if we really think so, first then speak to the admin (and the admin only). Rumours and guesses leads to a bad atmosphere. It's better to have such things straigthened out with accuracy rather than leaving it to be OOC chitter-chatter.

Though, I completely disagree on that a taniel thief shouldn't steal from another taniel follower. Why should every character see the choice of god as the primary measurement of things in life? I would assume a cleric to do so, but a commoner? I think it's up to every character to define how important he or she thinks worshipping his or her god is. People aren't always so rational, and there are many in real-life who for example believe in a god but contridict it by his actions or thoughts (with or without a possible regret). I don't think it's fair to comment on others' roleplay as awful, and you can't expect to adjust every player to specifically your taste of right or wrong RP. Personally, I don't see why someone couldn't play a taniel thief who feels bad everytime he steals. Or even ignores it... So, deal with things IC as you perceive them instead.

About retaliation, it's not a human right or universal solution. Maybe the steal from you for a reason? If you stopped raiding maybe the stealings would stop? Or maybe not because it's not even a thief who takes your stuff? You always have a choice IC, and I doubt that brute force should always be able to solve a problem. With that said, I think stealing is a bit like player-killing.. there's a limit for everything. Personally, I usually give my victim a fair way to recover his item unless he acts dumb, puts me at risk or so... Anyway, you get my point.

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#10 Post by Blizt » Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:42 pm

Well, if you read the roleplay section posts to this too
you will find that we didnt even try to find the thieves den, or we didnt care too, until the thieves were constantly stealing from us. We pretty much ignored the fact they existed. It didnt start when the raids started, the raids started when that happended. You say finally some action? Action from who? No one seems willing to continue this, I dont either, considering I am usually alone, and I have to fight Thieves/Sathos/Order alone sometimes. I guess I am just annoyed because there is nothing I can do about being constantly robbed and looted, because before this started, the good side had many numbers and "suspected" thieves werent so many, now its the exact opposite :)
I am not bitching or whinning, I am just annoyed at the current situation, like PO Jezz commented, I just dont see how good characters can let this happen, but they do, so I guess I gotta deal with it ;)
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#11 Post by golub » Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:26 pm

I don't think I said that you did try to find the den before some thieves started stealing from you.. I don't understand your point there..

Action from who? Well, there already was action (and might be more) which was what I was referring to.. About continuing it, well... It's like a war.. Noone acknowledges defeat and so it goes on. I guess all that is another topic though.

And, of course there are things you can do to not being robbed or looted.. assuming those who do it are somewhat fair and let you go if Blizt acts "correctly".. I don't think there's anything to whine about there. If someone plays unfair or cheats, you can report it.

I don't know what your think difference is of "whining" and "being annoyed on a forum", still taking it on the board maybe gives a bad atmosphere if there's no substance except that you're annoyed... And you're also implying that people are multiplaying unfairly.. It would make more sense if you argued why someone shouldn't be playing as you don't like, if I understood right what you're saying ;)

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#12 Post by jezz » Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:32 pm

It took me some time to understand, but I have to point a mistake on the way crusaders and taniel handled all this.

Thieves' den entrance was found, so you have to understand immediately that a war will pop up because thieves will try to remain hidden. I talked with crusaders and taniels asking them how they would end this war, and they just said "we will kill over and over because that's what crusaders do"

I think when a war pops up, both sides should pick a goal. For crusaders and taniels, maybe it could have been to break totally into the den, or if they expose three members of the guild, and for the thieves, it could have been if they kill 5 crusaders, steal the wrathbringer and keep it hidden for more than 2 weeks... dunno, use your imagination.

That way you are fighting for a goal, and each time you get a thief or a crusader, you grin and think "one less, with two thieves more we will win this and thieves will have to promise they will never steal from a crusader, taniel or inside the city of Elvandar"

Noone did this, and every side just started to kill each other again...

I have done it many times but I know now it's wrong.

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#13 Post by Blizt » Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:43 pm

I find setting a goal for this , pretty much pointless.
Myself, Venim and some others really didnt give a damn about the thieves
to begin with. Then I was robbed, over and over and over and over, and its still continuing. You can not make a deal with a thief icly. Why not? Because you cant trust them. No matter what deal you try to set with them IC, you know it will not stand, because they are liars. The war started when they started stealing constantly, so now, I think the war should end when they beg for a surrender. I have talked with Yandros about this already, we came to the same conclusion, this probably wont end until both sides get sick of killing each other and getting looted constantly.
You can point out all the mistakes you want, about how we handle this, but it is us, not you handling this. We are the ones getting stolen from constantly, not you. You dont see our side of this, alot of us are quite annoyed.
This could be why the first day the den was discovered, it was raided 3 differant times, by 3 differant teams. Each team consisiting of differant guilds and religions. Are you suggesting we set a goal like "when we kille 10 thieves, the war will end, if they promise not to steal from us again"?
what happens when we are robbed the next day? we realize we cant trust them and kill them again? Then it ends again......then we get robbed again?
I think some of us are annoyed past the point of setting a goal at the moment, we are just wanting to fight back, and thats all.

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#14 Post by golub » Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:17 pm

Just to point out something else.. You were stolen from, so you attacked the thieves den? That's to punish a whole guild for something that just a few individuals might've done (as far as I'm concerned the whole thief guild isn't set to steal from anyone by a command). I don't know who stole from you, but perhaps you should try to find this/these person(s) instead.. Maybe it wasn't even a member of the thieves guild?

Also, dying is supposed to be something you don't wanna do.. so, actually "proper" RP would be to stop after you died the first time. Of course, that's ultimately your decision which noone can decide how you your character should be like. My opinion is that it's boring if people don't fear death.. but well, that's me.

And I do think you can settle a deal with a thief.. just swallow some pride and cross your fingers. But well, I guess I shouldn't go into this as I don't even know who the thief is... yet fair of him would be to state a payment, you deliver it and it's over. Of course the opposite should be possible aswell....

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#15 Post by jezz » Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:37 pm

I was talking about an ooc meeting to agree on such points, not a chance for players then to RP a traitor.

I agree with Golub, people saying I don't fear death and attacking again and again knowing they will die is simply stupid. I like heroes, but if a hero dies, I bet he wouldn't want to suffer it again.

Anyway, your choice, your war ;)

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#16 Post by Blizt » Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:31 pm

Golub, I totally agree with you there.
I agree with you on all points actually.
The problem is, the player is behind a keyboard, they arent the character.
We had someone we knew was a thief captured, and tortured, trying to convince them to talk, but guess what? It didnt work. Not that I expect a thief to rat out other thieves, but you know, you torture someone enough, and they will break. Before someone posts a reply about the torture, it wasnt the halfling I caught either :) Anyways, the thing about raiding the thieves guild and punishing the guild as a whole........well, thats a risk a thieves take when joining the guild, they should expect to EVENTUALLY enter a war for something one of their members does, it happens with every other guild, so why not the thieves? I also hope you arent forggeting the fact that before any thief was killed (I mean the NPC guards) they attacked Elvandar and attacked us, as a Crusader, finding someone evil hiding under Elvandar, we did what we should, we captured him and tried to question him, but before we could interrogate him, a few thieves showed up and attacked the city. I really dont like this war either, considering some players of thieves dont steal, and are just in the guild for roleplay, and they will get drug into this now, but hey, thats a risk they should have known before they joined the guild. Yeah though, I agree with Jezz too .........now that I think more about it, maybe we should set some goals first, before people get more annoyed ;) Since I know know the background story of the thieves, well oocly at least, I realize there can be good and evil thieves, although a crusader is supposed to destroy evil, and anyone that stands in their way (that means the thief guild as a whole) Also, one last point , and comment on Golubs post: you say why punish the guild as a whole? I would like to see one thief on Geas who has never stolen anything. I know there is a chance there are some, but when alot of your members act a certain way, the whole guild gets drawn in, thats just guild politics.

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#17 Post by golub » Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:49 pm

Ok, there was probably just a slight misunderstanding. I wasn't trying to say you shouldn't attack the guild, I'm just saying that it's not the same thing as attacking the responsible of the theft of your things.. You include a lot of other thieves there. Of course, they have made other crimes, but that's another thing. Attacking the guild otherwise makes perfect sense for a crusader of course, so I don't disagree there..

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#18 Post by Abharsair » Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:08 pm

I think the wizards' stance towards people using OOC arguments against raiding the thieves' guild is more than clear since the change of rules. Therefore if someone is saying "because too many wizards [...] want it this way, and they dont want the thieves to be discovered" then he or she is either lying or very misinformed.

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#19 Post by chara » Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:11 pm

I also think you should be careful about going too far the other way - trying to use OOC information to push people to do something IC (in this case, to raid the thieves' guild through this note). As the change in player rules makes clear, if you believe that people aren't staying IC because they are using second chars to unfairly influence guild decisions, you should bring this up to the admin or the player arch. Waving accusations around in a forum, without any specific target or incidence, can only cause bad blood. There is no real chance of resolving any inappropriate RP in this way.

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#20 Post by Kortha » Sat Mar 25, 2006 1:33 pm

What I think sucks with this whole thing is that people use the way the code works to start up their rp to begin with. They know how many guilds of which kinds a person is allowed to join, and so the minute they see someone who has no visible main guild AND isn't in 2 layman guilds, they go "oh he's gotta be a thief". This isn't always true, you know. Especially now that there aren't skill bonuses for being in guilds, it's entirely possible to have a char who doesn't join a main one at all, for whatever reasons.

And assuming that everyone should think "thieves are bad, let's kill em" is rather erroneous, imo. In my experience, there's also "oh shit thieves, I don't want em pissed at me" and "stupid thieves, they won't fight fair and it's too much effort" viewpoints.
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