Looting

[Alamar]

I just wanted to make a quick post about looting dead players and lockers.

Looting regular items is not a problem, just slightly annoying.
Looting guild items is annoying, but promotes pvp. Guild items are replaceable for characters and so losing them is not absolutely crippling, just expensive and perhaps a source of shame to the character.

I do not think that custom items should be looted. My reason for saying this is definitely ooc based, but considering the amount of time that PLAYERS (not characters) put into collecting the ore, making the money, and then waiting for the item to be okayed, and then for someone to come along and take it... it's just bad for the game in general, so here is my thought on the matter.

Some looting is understandable, especially where mundane and guild items are concerned. In the case of custom items, however, there should be an effort to "ransom" the item back to its owner. Custom items do not appraise for much and so their resale value is low, but I think about 20 gold coins is not out of the question for a custom sword, for example. A "parlay" could be possible between even bitter enemies for the exchange of items and money.

Several days might be fine before asking the ransom or even a week or so. But custom items are near and dear to their makers (player and character alike)... it's a spoil on everyone's fun to take them and not give them back.

I make this suggestion in the name of promoting fun and good fun. Call it "sportsmanlike" behavior if you like. In the end it will make PvP a lot more exciting because players will be more willing to take risks.

-Alamar

[Delia]

Looting is always somewhat difficult issue. Main problem with it, even if its perfectly reasonable to do IC sometimes, that it tends to piss off people OOC. It bit feels like if something is not allowed to be looted, why not stop there? Also, great care should be taken when looting. Would your char loot everything just because you know as a player that it will hinder the other players efforts? Taking a lollipop from the child is also somewhat questionable. There should be a chance to reclaim the item somehow. Powerlevels between the characters/factions in question should be reasonable. Of course these are more-or-less just fair-play guidelines or something. Looting is fine by me if it doesn't go over the top. I do recall being somewhat distraught when I noticed my lockers looted long time ago...so...*shrug* Always a difficult issue.

[Vargrahim]

There is already a place where thieves can safely sell back the items to their owner..

[Blizt]

Well, I have had my corpse completely looted a few times, and for no reason at all. The same goes for stealing as well though. As long as their are thieves on geas, you will have people who steal and loot, and I really dont think anything can be done about it. One time I died, 2 thieves at the crossing found out where I died, simply snuck in, took all my crap and kept it. We spent hours and hours waiting to be able to form a team to go back, and when we got there, there was nothing left, it was all gone. I know other times I have been stolen from and looted completely of every item, with no chance to get anything at all back, and some of those items were very valuable and hard to acquire, such as a unicorn ticket which takes an exteremly long time to train (last one took me over 6 ooc months). I think the biggest problem is most chars that loot people, are characters that have the option to steal or take whatever they want, and can easily replace their items. Good chars dont really have this option, or have any way of income, and are usually preoccupied with things they are obligated to handle icly, instead of just ignoring everyone and everything around them to get more coins or whatever to replace their items. Some people on the other hand, have so many coins in the bank, and have so many stolen nuggets and ores in their locker, they simply dont care if they loot someone completely, because if the same happens to them, its easily replaced without any effort.

[Alamar]

Well I didn't mean that people who loot are necessarily better or worse characters. I simply mean that players should be aware of just how much ooc time goes into custom items (at least for most of us).

Yes items can be sold back through shops, but the market value is low (as metnioned in my first post). Regardless it would be best of all to have any "looted items" (when such things occur) be ransomed back to their owners as a matter of standard practice.

Maybe that's just sissy or something, but I think it would help preserve the fun of the game for all involved in pvp. I just saw the raiding of the lockers in Asador and I was kind of sickened by the taking of custom items there. Not to say that evil characters have not stolen from good characters and they probably "deserve" it, but it seems more like players vs players rather than characters vs characters at that point.

Any thoughts on this? I know it's a touchy subject.

-Alamar

[Blizt]

Well I didn't mean that people who loot are necessarily better or worse characters. I simply mean that players should be aware of just how much ooc time goes into custom items (at least for most of us).
-Alamar

I was using this as an example of how some chars might not realize why it bothers some people to be looted. So, once again I will have to state that its much easier for an evil char to "accquire" coins and ores, since they dont have to "work" for them, they can simply steal them or take them, so for them, getting custom items could be much easier, so they dont realize how much it annoys good chars to be looted. Thats just a possiblity, I dont know.
Of course, then again you could look at it like this, most evil chars dont even have the option of using a custom shop, since they are more than likely barred from Elvandar, so at least you have the option of accquiring custom items, when they .......... just have to threaten or bribe a newbie to get theirs for them

[tarlon]

Blitz why do you think that it´s easier to get ores for a evil char. Thats not true in generaly i would say it is even more difficult to get them. Because as evil char you are constantly hunted. If starts to become a miner he would be soon killed in the mines because it is a nice place to ambush and kill him easily. For a thief yeah he can get a couple of nuggets. but it doesn´t work as quick as you think. It takes very long time because you get about one or two nuggets a reboot. so the fastest easiest and savest way to get ores is to simply mine.
Okay there is just one difference raiding lockers. but both sides can do that. Okay evil guys would have 2 or even 3 places to rob them and good guys one or two places. depends on the aktual politics.
I am not a fan of looting stuff especialy the damned i loot everything manner. It just annoys. Getting a guild weapon i don´t see a real problem in it they cost next to nothing? or any guild has to pay 200 gold coins for a complete set of guildarmours. line devices. sure they are even easier to get. Yeah i would get a custom weapon or armour. Probably not all custom stuff if he had more. If all keep in mind to stay fair. With tarlon i had lots of player fights in the old days none looted anything and we all had a lot of fun and damned it annoyed us as well if we died and were happy if we could make our enemies retreat or die. I heard from some guys if you loot me i imedetly stop playing stuff it is as annoying as looting itself. I heard it from even from guys who loot corpses and raid lockers and thats even more funny.
Okay stay fair in pvp and have fun... staying fair doesn´t mean that you have to fight like a paladin

[Abharsair]

I'm not going to get deeply into this discussion since it's IC and the players' business to find an agreement, but I'd like to add that the reasoning of "I was looted in the past, so now I loot all of my enemies" doesn't fly too well. Loot the ones who looted you, but don't loot the ones who don't loot. Or, if you loot someone who usually doesn't loot, do it for a good reason, such as ransoming your own guild equipment or other reasonable demands, but don't do it just out of spite and to destroy it.

Raiding lockers, however, is in my opinion a different matter and technically not really looting, since usually no one was killed in that process. Sure, having custom items stolen is rough, but then again, lockers are by very definition not completely safe and if your custom item is very important to you, don't put it there. On the other hand, custom items shouldn't just be taken and then dumped into some pit. The one who stole them should either use them, charge ransom or demand something (appropriate) in return, giving the owner a chance to get them back. If the original owner then refuses to make a deal the thief can do with it whatever he wants.

[jezz]

As a slightly evil character, I have had some experiences with looting. As Abh suggested, looting is a very delicated matter, and its worst effect is the fact that often, if you are looted, is because you were killed. Beeing killed and looking at your smiling attacker is enough pain oocly to also see how you are looted from your precious items.

Add in the formula that often, the ones looting, are the ones who can lose less if they are looted themselves, and in the 90% of times that char will give away the item as soon as possible. 87% of the items that item is simply kept away because that makes you less strong.

I think that kind of reasoning makes a lot of sense, but adds little to the fun of players. Everytime I have looted an item has been:

a) To make a deal so Jezz could get something in exchange for the item
b) To take that item and give it to a player so that player could USE it

So think before looting, because sometimes the moment you kill someone, that beautiful and exciting moment, in which you feel like god, makes you do things that go too far. Get excited icly if you wish, but oocly always think that you are playing with persons, who also want to have fun in this game

Nothing more to add!

[Olrane]

Hey! I thought I'd put in my two cents too, since this is a big deal topic. In my time on Geas, as much as I've been a "thief", I've tried to be very courteous about custom and guild items, since I know I'd be completely crippled without mine. That to me means I either A) sell them for 20-ish gold or B) keep them circulating, giving them to another player who will use them, and that only in the most dire of cases.
That being said, I guess I'm just agreeing with Abharsair. There's a time and a place to loot, but try not to do it excessively, irreversibly, or when you vastly outnumber/overpower your enemy. If the fight was easy, IMO you don't deserve to loot your enemy...and on the other side of the coin, a thief should not keep anything for long and should not steal customs unprovoked. Stealing sentimental items is far more insulting and aggravating than killing, but both are strong and should not be overused as they can so demoralise the players that you'll see them less often. As long as we don't get caught up in the heat of the moment and use discretion, I think we can all have fun.

Happy MUDding!
poOlrane

[tessa]

I'd also like to point out, if you take, steal, or obtain a custom item that's not your own, it would be nice to not keep it and then log out and never play again. I think I can speak for everyone when I say that it's annoying when someone gets someone else's custom item, and then never plays again and never gives the original owner, or "interested customers" a chance to re/claim the item.

If you know you're going to stop and don't plan to come back, I'd like to ask some people to consider passing on or lending out custom items that weren't originally theirs so they don't just vanish. I know sometimes disappearing isn't planned (IE; maybe something comes up IRL), but if it is, at least consider passing on other people's items that you may have.

[Tatiana]

Well, it is a Roleplaying game; if one wants to collect items for the sake of collecting them he can always try with stamps. Same amount of frustration granted!

Every action on the mud is supposed to trigger a certain Roleplay, if you create a character and to enrich it you equip it with certain items it's he who's attached to them, thereforelosing them creates an opportunity to roleplay frustration, to offer deals to the thieves and to start an invastigation.

From the IC point of view it is not only just to 'loot' - it is also the only reasonable solution, would a character who puts his life at stake every day and fights for his ideals with great devotion pass on an opportunity to weaken the enemy side?

Taking weapons is something perfectly natural provided you know how to go about it later. (that is it's easy to catch you, offer deals etc...) If you have OOC problems with taking armours because you are afraid it will frustrate another player - it can be dealt with very simply, from the point of view of your character: Who really wants to return home carrying a mountain of clinking, smelly and on top of that heavy armours?

There is always an IC justification to be found, whatever you want to do. It is just more troubleto arrive at it than to start an ooc babble on how to be correct and not hurt anyone oocly. Perhaps we need to trust players' good intentions a bit more, to feel perfectly well with our choices.

The relevant argument is OOC time spent on acqiring it, but then.. those who take away your items know their value for you, therefore it gives them a unique opportunity to actually be able to influence your char and make him a dynamic being constantly facing difficult choices rather than a set of characteristics. Sometimes is very hard to influence the character, unless it concerns the player directly. For some strange reason people are more likely to accept a deal in this situation than when they are trading their life or being tortured - A painful death doesn't seem more scary than losing an embroided shirt? ;)

Agreeing that this outside influence is needed to rekindle the action, force the players to respond, create an dynamic environment, a hostile world where your character is on their own, a world of conflict and therefore interesting, is crucial to encourage roleplay.

Just my views on the matter, and hello BTW :D

[Alamar]

As I said, this is a result of ooc frustrations not IC.

What I am talking about is being aware that CUSTOM items are near and dear to the PLAYERS and not just the characters. Therefore, looting a custom item from a dead player should not ruin everyone's fun. Instead, the killer can loot if he/she wants, but they should also make a reasonable attempt to ransom it or at least keep it in circulation and not toss it somewhere for a reboot to claim it. That's my point.

I'm not sure what you mean by OOC babble... that's what a forum is . I think that the other responses back me up that this is in fact a problem for PLAYERS not just for characters. If you disagree, feel free, but don't call it babble.

-Alamar

P.S. I know that we are creating dynamic and interesting characters who respond to stimuli IC, but we are also (rumour has it) playing a game which is growing in popularity and a little interest in the issues that players have will help to build the player base. Having the response "you're mad? you must suck at roleplaying!" is less than helpful and downright harmful to increasing the popularity of the game.

[Abharsair]

The point being is that not everything which is perfectly fine IC should also be done. Want examples?

Would it be perfectly reasonable from an IC point of view to kill your enemy as often and as most effectively as possible? Absolutely. However, being killed five times a day by the same person is from an OOC point of view not fun.

Is it IC and consistent with a medieval world if people rape other people? Sure. But we don't allow it because from an OOC point of view it crosses a border which we have drawn.

Would it make IC perfect sense to kill off the semi-newbies which just joined an enemy guild so that they get frustrated and give up? Yes, it does. But from an OOC point of view it's scummy.

So, as you can see, not everything which is IC justifyable should be done within the game. And that's purely for OOC reasons. Now, personally I'm one of the people who isn't very attached to custom items, but I know there are some players who spent weeks and weeks to get the money and material to get their desired item, and I can understand that it would frustrate them OOC if someone nicks it and let's the reboot get it without any attempt whatsoever to exchange it for money, information or concessions. Just as it is frustrating to get killed 5 times a day or get killed as a newbie at the hand of an old and powerful character.

I also repeat myself if I say that it's perfectly fine to steal custom items and it's not illegal, and being emotionally attached to those items doesn't protect them from being nicked by other people. So if it happens to you, don't huff and puff, complain OOC or log off for weeks because you're pissed. Instead try to negotiate with the thief to get them back, because if you don't make an effort to get them back, you can't complain if you won't.

[adanath]

It is all pretty dry and clear to me. Most such issues can be resolved IC though people are too hurt ooc and it influences their ic actions so much that they can't resolve them.

If person X loots from person B and person B is upset by it then they should report person X to whomever the appropriate authorities are and try and get their items back. If Person X is indeed an evil character and thusly cannot go to any type of authority then they should realize that roleplaying evil characters comes with the whole idea of hmm...I am tyring to think how to put this. Other characters especially holy ones will treat you as damned evil. Not that complicated.

People should use common sense to refrain from giving any new or young players bad experiences in such areas, but those who are the recipients of looting and such should use their own common sense and think hmmm....why did I get looted? Or if there was no reason what can I do to get it back?

I know people should be sensitive to a degree OOCLY yet it gets ridiculous when every little thing is a matter of caring about the other player ooc. If it hurts their feelings that bad...anyways. You are playing a roleplay game in which people are evil and holy thieves and not thieves and kill and get killed. THink about it before you run off and complain.

All of it should have enforced IC consequences by the players. Why do you think thieves are hated? Because they steal. Looters are hated why? Because they loot. If someone becomes a looter do something about it. Do somehting IC. Report them to someone IC. If you know why they looted you or you know very well that you were a jackass or did this or that, that in turn ended up getting you looted then deal with it.

Personally I find most of this stuff ridiculous and childish as if little 8 year olds are playing.

[Tatiana]

The main point was: If you _decide_ to do something, whatever your ooc reasons are, find an IC justification for it, so it doesn't stay an ooc arrangement, but a blended part of the game, and no, I didn't call discussions here a babble
(if I had thought so, I wouldn't contribute :P )
but what happens in the @chat after someone is displeased with the IC happenings is sometimes very discouraging. Therefore if you're against looting, don't voice it oocly while the looting is happening, but suggest with your char why they shouldn't bother/care to take the things, why it would be better to leave them.

As for killing your eniemies - as most of the conflicts orginate as religious ones - it wouldn't necessarily be true that you'd like to kill your foes -if you do, they die in faith of the hostile god, one can claim it would strengthen their faith - which is only one of many possible reasons to be found to show some 'mercy'. (sure the attitude is still influenced by my feelings as a player, which just comes from using common sense, doing 'mean' things without a purpose isn't what is expected, but if you do have a purpose as I see it with looting, it is perfectly fine)

If we really are trying to recreate the medieval environment, then killing, torturing and raping would be its part. While we agree for the first two, the last is somehow unacceptable. From the point of view of contemporary morality, isn't it actually 'better' than torture? I don't say I'd like to see it as part of the game though, perhaps because it has no 'greater' purpose. (and tortures of course do! ;))

As our main aim is to have fun I try to respect other people's views even if they seem strange to me and act accordingly as not to create any of those unreasonable frustrations we all hate so much, and if a hint of this unpleasant feeling appears in my mind this is a good cure:

http://www.thenoobcomic.com/daily/strip171.html

^^

[Vargrahim]

The main point was: If you _decide_ to do something, whatever your ooc reasons are, find an IC justification for it, so it doesn't stay an ooc arrangement...

You should not do stuff because of OOC reasons, that's not roleplaying. It's not so that you have some OOC motive to do something and then just search for an IC reason to do it. To me, that sounds upside-down. If you play like that, it would 1) be very easy to become powerful 2) be pointless to play 3) destroy the game for others.. this is at least my opinion: you should roleplay your character, and base your decisions on his/her background and goals, not find something you want to do and then "find an IC justification"..