War, death, and the meaning of life.

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Loreen
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Re: War, death, and the meaning of life.

#121 Post by Loreen » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:27 am

To my knowledge, anyone leaving the ranger is a permanent enemy too. However, unlike the crusade, rangers rarely go out hunting those on their enemy list. And Arthur and the other rangers made it very clear to me that once fully joined, I could not leave ever again without ending up on that perma enemy list. However, took me nearly an OOC year from requestiong to join to actually be at that juncture where there is no turning back. And I don't think the crusade took that long with Mona.

As for who accepted Mona, I think it might have been Melba, but then again, the Asrals were at War with the crusade at that time. And the guild was basically split from what I noticed from the outside, a few fanatics fighting, all of which, with the exception of Mona, ended up leaving or expelled from the Asrals.... Melba, Mazar to name just a few.

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Re: War, death, and the meaning of life.

#122 Post by ferranifer » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:36 am

arxthas wrote:
ferranifer wrote:I'd "abuse" the game code any day if I know that ...
It would be your choice to abuse the game. I would report anyone who did it. It would be extremely hard to muster up some evidence, so I might not actually be able to do it.. but in principle it is what I would try. It is stuff like that which ruins the game for people and make them quit.
It's quite funny, because I would say it is stuff like your fanatical interpretation of the game code's intentions what made Fernao want to leave.

Feel free to report me for sparing the lives of an awful lot of Satho enemies over the years. I will give you logs if you want.

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Re: War, death, and the meaning of life.

#123 Post by fernao » Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:53 pm

ferranifer wrote: It's quite funny, because I would say it is stuff like your fanatical interpretation of the game code's intentions what made Fernao want to leave.
Want to leave? No. Think about doing so? Certainly.
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per
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Re: War, death, and the meaning of life.

#124 Post by per » Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:10 pm

I know this is a hard request, but I'd ask everyone to avoid describing game situations in particulars, but to only do so abstractly.

This might even help the discussion, and keep it more friendly.

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Re: War, death, and the meaning of life.

#125 Post by lanyara » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:43 am

The stipulation is that death should be a severe event and roleplayed accordingly.

That's fine.

With the current vitality system death is not much more than a decrease of stats, which will come back after some time again. This won't work as a deterrent against prolonged PvP, as it requires the players behind characters to accept it, in addition to possible IC scenarios which make no real sense for the involved character(s).

If deaths should be roleplayed accordingly, the best immediate solution is to increase the severity of deaths.

- You could add a modified shiver system which is triggered only after a few deaths - the first 2, 3 deaths would be of no consequence, subsequent deaths would trigger this shivering. It could be more severe than the old shiver system as well.

- Skill loss should also happen, but it should be only temporary. Meaning that if vitality goes up again, that skill loss comes back as well.

- Next suggestion - ressing with lower vitality should take more and more time. If it normally takes 1 minute to ress, why not 3 or 5 minutes when your vitality is really low?

- Ressing should also lower the max faith a character can have in a specific deity (where the ressing is done), no matter if the character is a cleric or is a non-cleric. This would affect clerics who die, and they would require to recover vitality first before going back into PvP, unless they want to perform less effectively. Eventually the cap would be so low that you could not worship that specific deity, at least not as long as the character is at low vitality.

Additionally, vitality should be recoverable when a character is not playing too a bit. This way you could make a long break with a character, and when you eventually come back you could (re)start at full health again - or somewhat more recovered at least, as vitality would be back.

These ideas won't solve IC issues, but they would encourage characters to care more about death than before. Also note that characters who stand no chance in PvP will auto-lose in wars more or less, which I think is unfair - non powertrained characters should get ways to participate as well IF they would like to. Right now they are just fodder for whoever powertrained to the max.
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arxthas
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Re: War, death, and the meaning of life.

#126 Post by arxthas » Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:25 pm

I do not disagree with having harder penalties. I would even consider permadeath the best solution if it was not for the fact that people would drop - which is worse.. but...

... it's also a matter if one RP's or not. If the game says "You died." one is supposed to RP that. Weakness, failing memory, whatever is prefered. To a roleplayer that comes naturally since ones focus would be to impersonate a character (as opposed to going back and attack the killer).

As long as people ignore what the game tells them we will have this problem.

Sadly though, as soon as something really starts affecting someone it's ignored or struggled against with brute force. Especially death.

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chara
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Re: War, death, and the meaning of life.

#127 Post by chara » Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:21 pm

ferranifer wrote:Then either IGNORE the code or CHANGE it. But excusing poor choices on a BROKEN code feature is just lame.
This is terrible advice. The code is written that way to encourage players to behave that way. Ignoring coded directives because you feel like it is destructive to the game world.

Of course, no one should behave like a rabid monster, there are also fair play rules and other considerations. But leaving a guild is intended to have very serious consequences. For a good reason. Guild hopping is a serious threat to balance and fun for all. So ignoring the coded, intended consequences because you OOC don't feel like it is... well, a real setback for everyone.

Other characters should shun a character who has left a guild. It shows that they are not entirely to be trusted, which is not the kind of person you want to have your back in a tough situation, and it's not the kind of person you want to share your own guild's secrets with. No, you don't have to destroy your character if you leave your guild, but you can expect a long and hard road to get back to a safe and respected position in society again. And if you want the guild brethren that you betrayed and stabbed in the back to no longer hate you and be after your blood, then it's going to take time, negotiation, and appeasement.

This is stated in "help guilds:"
You may gain the enmity of your former guildmates by leaving a guild, and may have trouble being trusted and accepted by another guild for your former associations and your fickleness. Think about this before joining or leaving a guild.
This isn't just a Crusader thing - every professional guild has similar responsibilities, and they should be roleplayed, not just ignored for convenience.

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Re: War, death, and the meaning of life.

#128 Post by krelji » Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:57 pm

The main issue with guild hopping isn't the act of leaving one guild in
order to join another. The main issue is now, always was, and probably
always will be that those leaving a guild usually are being accepted as
soon as they're able to join another guild. Those leaving a guild won't
commonly be referred to as traitors, and I don't think that they will be
referred to as such in their new guild.

IMO the issue can't be solved by increasing the penalty for leaving a
guild. A permanent enemy status for those above a certain rank will
only ensure that all guilds are pretty much constantly at war, if this
rule was being enforced - at least if it was implemented in all guilds.
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Re: War, death, and the meaning of life.

#129 Post by isengoo » Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:53 pm

In my experiences with some newbie alts of mine, where I'm not going for a certain guild, people from a guild that fits my character actively try and recruit them. I think this is an aspect of people joining guilds before they know what it really means, and when they decide it isn't for them they are left with few options.

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matusalem
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Re: War, death, and the meaning of life.

#130 Post by matusalem » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:12 pm

I need to agree with Isengoo's post here. As I said in another post, newbies are often times in too big of a hurry to get into a guild. Perhaps those already in the guild are too quick to accept people into the guild. As Matusalem, I haven't been trying to recruit or attract people into the Crusade because of this, and because the Crusade is a very demanding guild. The one recruit I've dealt with came to him, and only after speaking with the person to suss out their understanding of IG morality (as it applies to the Crusaders, their gods, and their rules) did I pass the name onto the rest of the guild as a prospect. I'm going to repeat my prior point here again, just in case anyone missed it from the other post: Don't be in a hurry to join a guild. Being in a guild is not nearly as fun as trying to get into said guild. Being guildless is far more fun and gives you more time to develop your character's personality and skills. Matusalem joined the Tanielite clergy when he was still a youngish character. I took a year+ hiatus from the game because clerical responsibilities were a drag. I came back, tried to continue on in the clergy, got bored with the character but instead reinvented him slightly as a guildless Evrenite. This is the most fun I've had with my character; it was also during this time I was able to max most of the skills he employed. Leaders of a couple guilds tried to actively recruit him. One of which obviously made a much better offer than the other, thus Matusalem just sort of found himself in the Crusade without it ever being the plan for the character. I think new players especially will benefit from not being in a rush to enter a guild, and we as players will be doing them a favor in giving them much more time before actively recruiting them. This is especially true of clerical guilds where miracles can be a crutch and prevent one from developing one's other skills.

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Re: War, death, and the meaning of life.

#131 Post by Urlyth » Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:26 am

lanyara said
If deaths should be roleplayed accordingly, the best immediate solution is to increase the severity of deaths.
I have accidentally died a few times recently and I play a good few hours a day and find it extremely hard to get my 'stats' back to what they were before death. I roleplay the fact I died and having to go slow and more cautious with the new body till it feels comfortable once more but I find that it takes me a real week of 6-8 hours a day of solid play (by that I mean active hacking/slashing, herbing and whatever ) to get back to full fit and that is a real pain in the arse but its how it is. I dont pvp dont want to , never did never will but those that want to with each other thats fine I stay as clear of that as I can and try not to be judgemental of those that enjoy it.If I got caught in something because of time and place well thats just my bad luck and I would have to grin and bear it.

What I do NOT enjoy is meeting a masked man on my way to town who couldnt care less about roleplay who wont enter into ANY roleplay at all but just attacks and means to kill my char dead without a word or any interaction what so ever. When I have just had a death and in a weakend state (thought an accident while mining) and trying to recover I dont think harder penalties would endear me to continue playing because of someone elses desire to just kill for god knows what reason since he didnt speak even though I made attempts to while trying to pass his block.
This is not a whine since it did happen a week or so ago(he knows who he is) and I have just put up with it but I am explaining my reasons for not wanting harder death penalties.

When I die up in hard places its a pain to get someone anyone that could be capable or even available or willing to get my stuff so the only course of action is to go get it myself and risk another quick and horrible death or I could get lucky and get my stuff back. Waiting for several hours or even days for someone to go get it and being handicapped until then or if arma is looming and the prospect of loosing hard earned custom weapons and armours has to be worth the risk of trying.

In short I think death stinks but its a fact of life but I think its quite hard enough without messing about with it any further.

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Re: War, death, and the meaning of life.

#132 Post by krelji » Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:42 am

I don't usually have a problem with real newbies realizing a mistake after
joining a guild. Such issues can be easily addressed, and some lenience
is acceptable in those cases - at least IMO. If the one leaving a guild isn't
a real newbie, or if the char in question decides to leave after a significant
amount of time, then it's certainly different.

Certainly it is impossible to reduce the amount of guild hopping if you
increase the penalty for leaving. There will always be chars who want to
leave a guild for whatever reason, and eventually those chars would like
to join another guild. Considering that a guild hopper rarely has any
apparent problems with joining the new guild of choice, I don't see how
you would reduce the amount of guild hopping, if you decide to increase
the penalty. By increasing the penalty you only increase the amount of
chars who are permanent enemies, and while this might be interesting to
watch in some cases - e.g. former Taniel clerics who joined the Crusade -
I do not see how this would benefit the game in general.
All knowledge is heresy. Yes, you heard me correctly.
It is the nature of religions to thrive on ignorance.

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chara
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Re: War, death, and the meaning of life.

#133 Post by chara » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:01 am

krelji wrote:The main issue with guild hopping isn't the act of leaving one guild in
order to join another. The main issue is now, always was, and probably
always will be that those leaving a guild usually are being accepted as
soon as they're able to join another guild. Those leaving a guild won't
commonly be referred to as traitors, and I don't think that they will be
referred to as such in their new guild.
If that's the case, then it's bad roleplay. And the consequence of being at war with a stronger guild should enforce the roleplay of making people really consider whether they want a traitor in their guild who's going to bring all that trouble with them. That's why ignoring the code to be nice is a terrible idea.

If you know that by accepting Xx in your guild, you're going to gain the enmity of Yy, it would make sense to negotiate with Yy before doing it. And if you've already ignored the expected roleplay and assumed Yy would really be OK with it, although it goes against in-game rationale, then you've got to do a heck of a lot of negotiating afterwards. Not complain that Yy isn't being nice by just ignoring the situation.
I think this is an aspect of people joining guilds before they know what it really means, and when they decide it isn't for them they are left with few options.
With the Crusaders, and probably with most other guilds, you have to be a significant rank before the enemy status kicks in. So if you're a newbie, join a guild, and realize it's not for you, you still have all of your options.

If you're a newbie, play until your character has significant rank (and advantages) from the guild, then decide you want to leave, you have a problem.

That's not to say that guilds shouldn't be picky about who they choose, and upfront about the risks and possibilities from the get-go, but the problem here isn't one of newbies being suckered into guilds and then locked into them for life.

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