Druids

If it's no bug or an idea, but it's still MUD-related, it goes here.

Moderator: Wizards

Message
Author
Mogwai
Veteran
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:15 pm

Re: Druids

#21 Post by Mogwai » Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:38 pm

ramandu wrote:I would disagree a bit with Mogwai. The stated purpose of the Druids is to protect nature, but that does not mean they are defenseless. While a primary PvP Druid would be inconsistent with guild, the Druids need not be any less rounded than any other guild. To see the Druid as a sappy (pun intended) crunchie hippy who plants trees and heals without any other interest is to think that a Crusader does nothing but pick fights and follow orders. I actually find much more freedom and creativity in RPing a Druid than a Crusader. (one of the reasons I do not play Ram as much).
Yes. You can be a crusader who does nothing but pick fights and follow orders.

BUT

While there are stricter rules within the Crusade, A person with high amounts political savvy/creativity/craftiness to play within those rules and confines to make the most out of a Crusader experience and make it more then.

"nothing but pick fights and follow orders."

One could also argue that the stated purpose of the druid guild is ideal but not practical. I love the work the wizzies do but I don't think anything, even a stated purpose is necessarily perfect and may need additional guidance from wizzies. Example: Codex of Asral was helpful to my Asral priest

ramandu
Professional
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:26 pm
Location: North Carolina, US

Re: Druids

#22 Post by ramandu » Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:57 pm

I was not intending to imply that playing a Crusader is limited. Playing a Crusader (as any other character) is filled with opportunities to create rich histories and create a character with a complex inner life as well as rich outer one. I was merely rebutting the portrayal of a Druid being a limited experience and confined to only planting trees and healing.

Sure, you could follow the stated rules 100% and have a completely transparent and flat character, but there are numerous ways to play a Druid.

I agree with mogwai that
Mogwai wrote: While there are stricter rules within the Crusade, A person with high amounts political savvy/creativity/craftiness to play within those rules and confines to make the most out of a Crusader experience
And I would add that the same could be said about the Druids.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

User avatar
lili
Experienced
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 2:10 pm

Re: Druids

#23 Post by lili » Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:42 am

I honestly would be perfectly happy munching on herbs, planting trees, healing and skipping around in the forest singing to the trees. It might not appeal to everyone but there is more to Geas than just PVP, sure its a big part of it, but so is Rp at least to some of us. I really liked that they didn't 'kill' people, i thought it fit well in the 'protection of life' aspect of Evren. Though I would agree in at least some aspect that I thought they should be able to do something against at least deathpriest.
(= You guys need to vote =)

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: Druids

#24 Post by luminier » Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:54 am

I think what Mogwai meant is you are forcing yourself to just RP and very limited PVP when you choose to be a Druid.

Whereas with another guild you don't have that restriction. Hell even the scribes guild that isn't even an occupational guild theoretically has the option for some cool PVP interactions and RP interactions.

PVP and the fight system is a very cool part of Geas and it's definitely a popular reason for many to play the game. It's almost like people are looked down upon if they do PVP and RP... I don't see why. There are those who refuse to RP and they get anything that is coming to them in my opinion.

If I understood Mogwai correctly he thinks it is weird for a guild to essentially be "just RP" and have next to no PVP or even fighting element. But the good thing about RP is that people can do whatever they want ... personally I think the coded support of being a Druid would be very cool and a crime to abandon.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

Mogwai
Veteran
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:15 pm

Re: Druids

#25 Post by Mogwai » Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:11 am

Luminier understands my point.

The druids should not be abandoned but
These choices should be available:

A rationalizing Druid---Is the loss of life going be greater if I do not intervene?

A goblinoid hunting party goes through and starts killing all the forest animals
Druid sees dead animals and although the druid has pacifist principals. The loss of life that will be incurred from the goblinoids actions are too great and therefore the druid acts & summons a treant to smash the goblinoids.

Or...

An angry druid---"Okay, these Muthaf*ckas are going to cut down the Lady's trees I replanted x number of times?!"

instead of "lets plant 'X number of more trees'
Druid A says to Druid B, "Go destroy the usurper to defiles the Lady's trees"

or...

A moderate Druid--- life loving yet practical:
Arise of the different philosophy of a druid that values life but not to the extremist degree.

ramandu
Professional
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:26 pm
Location: North Carolina, US

Re: Druids

#26 Post by ramandu » Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:49 am

Having the multiple subclasses that Mogwai lists would weaken the Druids. Too few people as is and having a single guild whose members choose to give eschew killing is unique and ought to be preserved. As the druids were a few years ago, their healing was far greater than other clerics and i do not believe that this "imbalance" was a bug. The Druids have lost some of the power they once had due to "bugs" and most of their rituals over the last few years. If they are to kept as is and recoded, losing the core of pacifism would loss some of what they are.

For the more militant, there are any number of RP opportunities to be angry "guardians of nature.". However, without giving away too much, a Druid as they are now could portray any of the options Mogwai portrays, it would just more difficult and there would likely be severe ramifications if one were "caught" by an elder. As I have said before, a Druid will never be a tank, but PvP and the combat system is not lost to them.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

lanyara
Overlord
Posts: 1048
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:06 am

Re: Druids

#27 Post by lanyara » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:40 am

They are so peaceful that they could be Gwennies.

The pacifism background is central to them.

It also makes it very hard for them to fit into the game.
Best race: halflings.

fernao
Champion
Posts: 610
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:44 am

Re: Druids

#28 Post by fernao » Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:23 am

In my eyes Mogwai didn't suggest subclasses to the druids, merely different philosophical streams within the guild. All have one big goal but different ideas on how to achieve it. The question however is of course how that can be managed without the guild breaking apart. But I guess it isn't that much different from other guilds, get ten people from the same guild and have them discuss a topic freely, and you have at least 11 different opinions. ;)
Life is but a butterflies dream
Image

User avatar
glasp
Professional
Posts: 84
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:55 am

Re: Druids

#29 Post by glasp » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:24 pm

Speaking just my personal opinion now..

I think there are a couple of problems with completely pacificist guild. The first one is that has no role to play at all. Protecting trees or something like that will end up becoming very passive. There's just no idea behind it. Unless you have some sort of other guild who actually very much needs the trees. Or if the trees are somehow central to the theme of the game. I mean it's a nice fluffy idea to protect some trees, but it just becomes irrelevant otherwise. We do not want stuff that doesn't connect to anything.

On a more general note regarding guilds, I think we have two groups:

1) There is a big group of cross-guild, cross-race, cross-culture players who are all good friends. This obviously creates absolutely no game content except for perhaps rubbing the ego of the super-friendliest characters. In essence, it creates self-sufficiency which in turn kills the need for interaction between players.

2) The cliques of players that aren't often ends up sidelined and irrelevant. This usually ends up in pointless PVP without any story at all to it (e.g. think kill-on-sight/psychopath "RP") which is just as bad. It might all be interesting, but then all of this just as possible without the guild.

The guilds have a certain lack of purpose, and in the case were it's been tried to add one it I think it didn't work too well. Sometimes because it was interpreted differently than intended and sometimes because it just wasn't that great to begin with.

We need to think what guilds are for in the first place. But it is for certain that we do not want everyone to be best-friends (or auto-kill for that matter). Nor do we want them to be an "armour/weapon set". Furthermore, they should not be passive (e.g. defending some useless asset). They need an active goal they can pursue in their day-to-day, one that matters/make sense and truly affect other characters (in a non-cosmetical way). In essence they should drive interaction and RP. Nobody should remain unaffected, self-sufficient and all-powerful. Sadly, this is untrue for nearly every guild in the game at the current time (I'd like to think of the Crusaders as the only guild with a really clear-cut goal that makes sense - however they alone are a bit narrow). It's hard to fix. Especially with picky customers ;)

I'd also like to add that it's a common mis-conception that Evren is somehow angered if someone e.g. cuts down a single tree (I'm quite sure Abharsair wrote about this on the wiki before) or that they are somehow peacelovers (not sure if somebody thought this, but I might just clarify that just in case). I also believe that the miracles will always stay stronger than any magic that is ever introduced into the game, simply because that's the way we want it.

User avatar
Delia
Overlord
Posts: 2782
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:22 am
Location: Finland

Re: Druids

#30 Post by Delia » Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:48 pm

Before I go to sleep and write anything else:
I also believe that the miracles will always stay stronger than any magic that is ever introduced into the game, simply because that's the way we want it.
Hear hear!
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

Blizt
Hero
Posts: 263
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:14 pm
Location: Tennessee

Re: Druids

#31 Post by Blizt » Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:32 am

There were a few druids that did not mind teaming with Crusaders, to cure them in Eal-Deliah, or even in PvP vs Order/Sathonites. These druids also did not care to use the cool tree throwing thing on them, or some wall of thorns or branches or whatever....they did whatever they could to help as long as there was no loss of life if possible.

I don't see why they can't be left alone, maybe tweaked a bit, and new members accepted.

User avatar
Eluriel
Master
Posts: 195
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:40 pm

Re: Druids

#32 Post by Eluriel » Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:25 am

glasp wrote:We need to think what guilds are for in the first place. But it is for certain that we do not want everyone to be best-friends (or auto-kill for that matter).
I kind of see that as a problem. It seems that the Crusaders/Taniels/Rangers/Shaolin are all pretty much on the same side, fighting for the same things, and its them vs. the Sathonites. That's not very interesting. :/ Would love to see guilds for Gwen and Lilith, which might mix things up a bit. And I think the Druids could also offer some alternate rp opportunities. If they are protectors of life, do they disapprove of people killing whole villages of goblinoids? Would it be possible to fix whatever things are broken with them so that they are a viable option to play?

User avatar
glasp
Professional
Posts: 84
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:55 am

Re: Druids

#33 Post by glasp » Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:12 am

I am slightly off-topic perhaps (sorry for that) and please do not take my opinions for the official stance on anything. That said I have a feeling it's not far from it. Allalltar is probably the best guy to comment on Druids specifically. I do not know what will happen with them. My guess is "not much".
I kind of see that as a problem. It seems that the Crusaders/Taniels/Rangers/Shaolin are all pretty much on the same side, fighting for the same things, and its them vs. the Sathonites. That's not very interesting. :/ Would love to see guilds for Gwen and Lilith, which might mix things up a bit. And I think the Druids could also offer some alternate rp opportunities. If they are protectors of life, do they disapprove of people killing whole villages of goblinoids? Would it be possible to fix whatever things are broken with them so that they are a viable option to play?
I also dislike the great contrast between the good and evil side, and the lack of constrast within the neutral/good side. I have no problem with that it's harder to play an evil role (that's a good thing even) - but it is a problem if they're sidelined. And what is the point to having 4 different guilds that does just the same thing anyway, mind the cosmetics/philosophical fluff?

I'd love to see new guilds too, but it's extremely much work. And with a sort of fuzzy world that we have now, it gets hard to make a clear-cut purpose with the new guilds that actually adds something. We also need to ask ourselves how well we're doing with what we already got and what player base capacity there is.

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: Druids

#34 Post by luminier » Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:43 pm

It's fine to not "like" the alliance that exists between the Crusaders, Tanielites, Shaolin and Rangers. The facts of the matter is this: Sathonites hurt people from every guild so any guild they hurt will want them dead, Crusaders and Tanielites will always want to make friends with people that are strong followers of Evren or Taniel because they share the same core beliefs and they want the representation of their god to be strong and powerful.

Oh and you forgot to mention the Asralites. I think they are fairly neutral and are pretty much hated by everyone for it... I think thats the way it should be. Crusaders hate indifference, according to the new codex - so does Taniel. And I am sure Sathonites are ready to slit the throats of whoever doesn't want to help them end the world.

Sure Glasp, you can say that there is very little difference between the "good" and the "neutral" and I agree there is not. What you can't say is that there is no good reason for it.

Ill also say that when the Crusaders, Tanielites, Rangers and Shaolin were fighting against the Order, Asralites and Sathonites was quite some fun ... baring of course the people that decided to cheat to "win the mud", but thats in the past now.. and off topic.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

Blizt
Hero
Posts: 263
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:14 pm
Location: Tennessee

Re: Druids

#35 Post by Blizt » Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:53 pm

This is slightly off topic as well, but in response to earlier posts.

This is an RP MUD, we shouldn't need people watching over us telling us what our character does is right/wrong for his guild/religion.

The "alliance" is a direct result of the actions of the Sathonites/Order. Their guild raiding/looting and etc....

When people state that the evil guilds are "unplayable" because everyone is hunting them, they need to realize that the reason for that is the direct result of something they have done usually.

User avatar
glasp
Professional
Posts: 84
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:55 am

Re: Druids

#36 Post by glasp » Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:33 pm

I'd just like to point out that I am talking about what incentives there are, not the turn-out. I wasn't really aware of an official alliance - I was just talking in general terms about how it is and has been. The incentives are not so that you gain anything by reducing your amount of friends. It is just "unnecessary", so the good/neutral group stays large of course (while evil guys stay disconnected).

So my point is just that there isn't much reason to act in any other way. Meaning that it is more or less systemized. And adding another guild that just adds to that same nothingness is pointless.

User avatar
luminier
Overlord
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 pm
Location: Manitoba Canada

Re: Druids

#37 Post by luminier » Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:53 pm

Pointless from a political PvP perspective. But there are still players, quite a few I am sure, who would want to see the Druids back. One has to admit that it is quite an interesting guild. Especially with all of their cool tricks and mysteriousness.
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

User avatar
glasp
Professional
Posts: 84
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:55 am

Re: Druids

#38 Post by glasp » Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:11 pm

I am not talking about PVP either. Just because someone are non-friends does not mean they must attack each other physically. There is a "gray zone" which I personally think is more interesting than a polarized black-and-white PVP setting (of course, PVP is one possible outcome from a gray zone..). But it can not happen if everyone only has incentive to be super-friends or super-enemies.

Joining occupational guilds is to take a "political" stance and should not primarily be about what skills/armours/tricks you get with it. That said, I agree the guild was very well made by Allalltar. It has lots of mystique, background and depth in it. I know he spent alot of time on it was indeed quite artful and original. The question was if it can play a meaningful role (and well, to be fair it was already answered..).

I'm however sure that the wizards are always interested in any brilliant ideas that the players have (and of course they must not entail the same problems). But I realize when saying that, that it is most likely not going to happen. However - not my call.

ramandu
Professional
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:26 pm
Location: North Carolina, US

Re: Druids

#39 Post by ramandu » Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:32 pm

glasp wrote: "The question was if it can play a meaningful role (and well, to be fair it was already answered..).
The problem is that for the last few years, the guild's failure has been a self fulfilling prophecy: poor coding support, uncertainty of a future for the guild, and a smaller player base. If the guild is to have a future, there need to be a two way commitment to the guild by a player base and the admin.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

Blizt
Hero
Posts: 263
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:14 pm
Location: Tennessee

Re: Druids

#40 Post by Blizt » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:44 pm

Just reopen the guild for new players! Like a test...you know.

It would be a shame for all of someones hard work to go to waste.

Post Reply