Mages vs. Clerics

[Delia]

Any thoughts about this? So far it seems the mage's broad powerbase is quite nicely balanced by the ease of access and use of miracles by the cleric. Even though it currently seems(speaking of combat applications) that a super-charged firebolt from a mage could be more devastating than fire from the Asral's most devoted, the cleric has a distinct edge when applying his/her deadly arts. Any clerics(other ppl too of course) care to express their views/concerns?

[isengoo]

Mages are squishier.

[Abharsair]

Mages are squishier.

Nicely put.

[tessa]

Mages are squishier.

Tell that to the Asral Clerics that Tessa beats in spars.

[jezz]

I think a mage should never be able to stand a fight against a cleric 1vs1. Maybe he could if he first prepares for the fight and sets a nice ambush. In fact, every player can kill another if the right ambush is set up. But in a plain situation of "<C> crosses <M> in the road and attacks him", the mage should go down pretty quickly.

There are two ways to do this. The first is already implemented: if you train a lot of combat skills, your mental ones will go up slower and you will never be a very competent mage. The problem with this is a mage would not need a lot of combat skills if he only aims for defense... A good parrying weapon (shield?), defence and similar, combined with mood defend, would make a mage a really "hard to hit" foe (Kaspars and me attacked Delia in mood frenzy using gores and such and she could stand us for 2 or 3 rounds alive).

The second way would be code: not allowing mages to use shields, granting them spells at the cost of physical stats (so much studying is not good for your legs' strength) or not allowing them to wear armours at all (only clothes) are only some examples.

But I'd hate to see a mage tanking trolls in mood defend while burning them with fireballs. We already have asrals for that role

[Delia]

A good parrying weapon (shield?), defence and similar, combined with mood defend

not allowing them to wear armours at all (only clothes) are only some examples.

Mages are already penalized for having metal(atleast worn metal) and not sure how a shield would relate to that, but it seems quite off. Granted, its VERY effective. All fights against a satho cleric with a shield and mood defend:"hit by bonespear, hit by bonespear, so far no hits delivered, bleeding heavily and bad shape or worse, flee." So its real good, but I can't see mages using that.

granting them spells at the cost of physical stats

Well, you already need to improve physical skills to get physical stats AND/OR divert statprefs to physical stats instead of mental ones and what I feel is that mages rely heavily on mental stats, so...

But I'd hate to see a mage tanking trolls in mood defend while burning them with fireballs.

This I doubt will ever happen. While a single troll can be "easily" enough roasted, so far it would seem to require stupendous resources from a mage to scorch multiple opponents again and again like the Asrals do. It just doesn't work that way

[Itenin]

I agree with Jezz for the most part, and the majority of what he suggests is already in place.

To answer the original question, I feel a "super-charged firebolt" from a mage should probably be amongst the most devastating attacks one can suffer. The extensive amount of work put into a mage dwarfs that of any other calling within Geas both in hours invested and resources necessary. There are a few other handicaps I won't mention, but as it stands currently it seems balanced nicely.

A prepared and skilled mage should be a force to be reckoned with. Achieving "prepared and skilled" should be quite difficult. That seems fair to me.

[jezz]

Don't forget that I'm talking from the ignorance. As I can see by words like "super-charged firebolt", other people already more than me about the topic, so my ideas or thoughts might or not be already implemented and they were not suggestions to change anything...

[Vargrahim]

Any thoughts about this? So far it seems the mage's broad powerbase is quite nicely balanced by the ease of access and use of miracles by the cleric. Even though it currently seems(speaking of combat applications) that a super-charged firebolt from a mage could be more devastating than fire from the Asral's most devoted, the cleric has a distinct edge when applying his/her deadly arts. Any clerics(other ppl too of course) care to express their views/concerns?

I want to see a mage first before I judge. The magic I've seen was not much. My initial stance is that magic power should be weaker than a cleric's in combat..

[Delia]

I want to see a mage first before I judge. The magic I've seen was not much. My initial stance is that magic power should be weaker than a cleric's in combat..

Both have their own strong points...like cleric attack spells auto-hit, mage attack spells do not.

[anglachel]

Magicuser (mages and clecis) are often the 'heavy artillery' in the game. Mighty from the backrow, but poor in the direct combat.
But i think a mage should not reduced to the combat value. There can be many usefull spells, that are no combatspells.
A good example is 'teleport'. This spell has no big combat value, but it is big advantage to have a save and quick travel without the fear of an ambush or annoying guards. I my oppion these spells are the main benefit to be a mage, not the firebolts. These combats spell should a nice cookie nothing else.

[Vargrahim]

If you think clerics are "poor" in front row you are kind of off, IMHO.. asral clerics are excellent front row fighters for example.

[Delia]

But i think a mage should not reduced to the combat value.

Of course not But I think the combat value of mages is something that players might be concerned with. Sure the non-combat spells are awesome and I simply love them, but I doubt a single crusader or satho will be concerned if a lone mage just keeps hopping around Forostar.

[jezz]

Even a spell like teleport, if it can be casted while in combat, could be one of the most powerful tricks a mage could perform, either to scape from a fight, or to ambush someone, but I don't know how it works so...

I agree with Anglachel and Delia, imho clerics are not meant for front row, but you can't really expect a cleric with access to an awesome chain armour, a miracle to increase his good armourstats even more, another to heal slightly periodically, another to heal himself instantly two or three levels of health...

And I'm sure I missed some tricks an asral can use to be the ultimate front row fighter. Still, I like it, because it makes them different from other clerics, and I must admit a satho wearing heavy armour, with our shield and draining constantly could be a good tank too.

I just think we already have a guild meant to be magic users front fighters... so mages should try to identify themselves with other aspects.

[Vargrahim]

In fact, I'd say all clerical guilds are very good for being front-row.

[iza]

Asralites do alright as front line fighters, however this is because in theory they often go do things alone. They have their own niche and no other warrior class to rely on like other clerics, they are almost like the soloist of the game, and are best fighter/cleric hybrids of all the cleric types which i've always enjoyed. Under normal circumstances Sathos have the Order and Tanielites have Crusaders. While often slightly stronger then any other class (thanks to self heal, buff and fight with miracle/weapons/armour), they nowhere near as strong as a crusader/tanielite or satho/order combo.

I don't think a mage should be able to stand up to a cleric, any cleric. Miracles/fighting/heal/dispel/protection should be too much for them. However mages should be able to stand toe to toe against warriors and fighter, it should be close matches often in favor of the mage. Especially against Tsharaks...infact the lizards should really have a susceptibility to magic (and maybe to a way lesser extent dwarves) where as a half-elf, elf or halfling should have more resistance.

In short an elven warrior might do well against a mage but an Tshahark one will most likely get fried ever time. I don't see this being too much of a problem since most of them will still be able to kill every other race/class combo with one or two hits like they do now and done in the past.

[jezz]

Replying Iza:

I don't think tshaharks should be very vulnerable to magic. In fact, tshaharks are somehow "magical" creatures, since they were created by mages.

I'd like tshaharks to be resistant to magic, BUT they should of course be very vulnerable to "mind" magic or "cold" magic.

Just an idea of course

[Delia]

Now with the first experience with magic during a difficult fight, I am inclined to ask how is it for clerics who have access to good combat miracles. I have to say, even if the fight was expected to be a difficult one, the team was a very good and balanced one, consisting of one Taniel, one Asral, one magic-user, one ranger and two crusaders(ok, a very effective team).

Do and can clerics use a single miracle to a good/superb effect? The reason for asking is that it felt bit like a decisive(or atleast a very effective) factor, having six scrolls of 'earthblast'(mur, for those in the know) prepared and used during the fight against the minecrawler queen. Too bad I did not log the fight, hope someone did? Comments from participants welcome. Just interested in the balance aspects of it all.

[ganandorf]

Do and can clerics use a single miracle to a good/superb effect? The reason for asking is that it felt bit like a decisive(or atleast a very effective) factor, having six scrolls of 'earthblast'(mur, for those in the know) prepared and used during the fight against the minecrawler queen. Too bad I did not log the fight, hope someone did? Comments from participants welcome. Just interested in the balance aspects of it all.

Short answer: No.

In my experience in combat with miracles i have never been able to use a single miracle to a good/superb effect. Being a cleric (especially for sathos because most of the time your on your own, atleast i was) requires lots of preparing, i mean i cast about 4-5 miracles anytime i leave asador just in case. And when the actual fighting starts, ive never been able to use one miracale to get the job done, for example, my strongest miracle on neutral ground brings an ogre down to hurt, this is just generalization though theres alot of other factors that make a difference.

I'm not too sure what you mean by good/superb effect, but if you can clarify maybe i can give more information.

[Delia]

From what I can say, after an offensive spell with mid/high power a regular foe(orc, ogre, you know) is usually left in a rather poor condition(50%), where it takes little effort from an experienced fighter to finish the job.

From what I have experienced PvP-wise, it usually takes only one bonespear to drive Delia away(around not in a good shape) or better yet one hellfire(bad shape, burning) so I had the idea that clerics would fare far better atleast when soloing as some spells, unlike miracles, can miss and all castings can be interrupted.

I guess the raw effectiveness was mostly due to good fighting capability on both sides, neither delivering awesome criticals or such. When you can deliver guaranteed damage in that situation it pretty much decides it.