Mages vs. Clerics

[ganandorf]

I dont think mages should be damage dealers.

I mean ive seen some of the stuff that you can do, and some of your spells are pretty damn effective offensively even without causing any damage. I mean what good is a fighter/caster without an arm right?

So i think, atleast for sathos and asral clerics, we have the edge combat wise. Support wise in a larger team we're not that great. Whereas mages and taniel clerics are awesome supportwise.

[Delia]

One of the key points is the capability to customize your mage if you just put the effort into it. You can change your spells and tailor yourself to suit a very specific situation, for example. That said, mages are not necessarily damage dealers but what they do not excel at is buffing the team like clerics can, even if they have some such effects. Clerics are very, VERY reliable when it comes to mages. Magic is defined by random factors, with miracles you can rely on them doing what they are supposed to do. A lone mage can be a very sorry sight at times...

[luminier]

I dont think mages should be damage dealers.

I mean ive seen some of the stuff that you can do, and some of your spells are pretty damn effective offensively even without causing any damage. I mean what good is a fighter/caster without an arm right?

So i think, atleast for sathos and asral clerics, we have the edge combat wise. Support wise in a larger team we're not that great. Whereas mages and taniel clerics are awesome supportwise.

Im gonna have to stop you right there. Yes the magic is effective. However given the time it takes to get to said effectiveness, not even mentioning the fact that there are many factors in place already that prevent the "over powered"ness of mages, it's clear that the effectiveness is warranted.

And fighters are still dangerous with an arm, if you leave Luminier with a head, you're in trouble (thank you headbutt, oh and you too knee and other arm).

I also am going to say that every Cleric is dangerous combatwise. I would rarely fight a Cleric alone with Luminier unless I was sure I could either cause alot of damage very fast or have a clear escape. Taniels, Sathos and Asrals are all fairly equal, I could easily mention points for all Clerics but I think people tried before and wizards weren't pleased. But I will say this, Herst and Ganon were "mofos" to deal with and they weren't even strong! Imagine Delia/Luminier/Adanath Sathonite Clerics, I just trembled. And the same goes for the other Clerical groups, which would make ur larger group theory (as I have defined as being three apparently) a bust.

[Delia]

there are many factors in place already that prevent the "over powered"ness of mages

Yea, casting a spell requires more checks than one, castings are interruptible and spells do not follow when someone flees, for one.

With clerics the "problem" is that your miracles can be pretty effective when they work, but if the target is immune/protected you might feel being quite ineffective. Mages on the otherhand can choose the spells they use and even forget/change the ones they have, thus eliminating such situations.

[Delia]

Ganandorf said:

I mean ive seen some of the stuff that you can do, and some of your spells are pretty damn effective offensively even without causing any damage. I mean what good is a fighter/caster without an arm right?

Just remembered the incident you referred to...I just have to clarify that you had rotten luck that time whereas the 'dice' smiled for me. If that effect was 100% guaranteed it would be pretty scary and disheartening indeed!

[ganandorf]

So if i understand correctly with spells, even when the scroll has been read and the spell cast around yourself effectively there is still a chance that it wont hit?

For example with that ice spell, before you came into the room you had already cast it on yourself, if you were to hit me for example 100 times, would it fail half the time, have a weak effect 25% of the time, and devestate the other 25% or something like that?

And like you said delia. Our spells can sometimes be negated, i remember an instance when there were three of us, versus just you. Of course you were immune to our spells and put up a fight in which you were *almost* successful.

I think its kind of hard to judge how good the magic system is with so few users. The one main one that we have (you delia) is also awesomely proficient in combat, so its hard to tell what makes you so devestating. For example, I'd much rather fight any taniel or asral cleric 1 on 1, but no way in hell would i take you on, your shaolin/magic combo is devastation.

[Delia]

Most spells do not hit automatically. With most spells the effect can be rather random, even to the point of casting something else! Most good combat spells are one-shot, if you happen to miss or something else, that is that.

As for the fight, there was some luck on my part and majority of the preparations succeeded, most combat castings succeeded as well, some were interrupted. Magic excels at protecting from magic. It is not fool-proof however. Had you went full melee the second you noticed something is not right you might have won. Technically you did win though, you drove Delia off quite nicely and almost killed her. Delia did not manage to kill anyone either.

For the record, last death was to wolves and it involved very little stupidity. She was just eaten up. She is not that invincible, but I am happy that the myth endures

[luminier]

I think the real problem here is no one wants to fight something they are unfamiliar with, they want to know exactly what they are getting into. I don't know about everyone else but I like being the guinea pig and thinking on my feet.

[Delia]

I have little idea what to expect with magic even now. It is refreshingly surprising at times. Guinea pigs are always welcome.

If even some of the characters with "magic-potential" had kept on living, there'd easily be atleast five more mages of various degrees now, perhaps even more. A shame, really.

[vurdijak]

I'm sure some of them will 'live' again when more than just scroll magic is available.

[krelji]

I have little idea what to expect with magic even now. It is refreshingly surprising at times. Guinea pigs are always welcome.

I agree that it's refreshingly surprising at times, and I think this is what it makes
so interesting to work on.

If even some of the characters with "magic-potential" had kept on living, there'd easily be atleast five more mages of various degrees now, perhaps even more. A shame, really.

It is rather unfortunate that most of the chars with 'magic-potential' aren't available
currently. If more would be around then it wouldn't take nearly as long to add those
pieces that are still missing, and to sort out the bugs.

I'm sure some of them will 'live' again when more than just scroll magic is available.

Those who wish to return once more than just scroll magic is available are well
advised to continue with their studies now, as they could shorten the distance to
being able to access it. My char has - at least in theory - access to more than just
scroll magic, so I know what I am talking about.

[vurdijak]

This is a post from Abh. from some time ago.

(This post is mainly in regard to Jezz' statements)

Well, it just completely puzzles me how rumours and wrong assumptions can grow like that among our players. Maybe it's time to clear some up once and for all:

1) Mages aren't coded yet. They haven't even been begun yet. We are still trying to come up with a decent and innovative concept which is different to most other games. So unless you know more about the Mages' concept than I do, I would really, really like to know why you came up with such an abstruse idea. Please?

2) Mages and Scribes will be two completely different groups. It won't matter whether you have been a scribe, an illiterate imbecile, a thief, a tanner, or only god knows what else, if you manage to find someone who teaches you magic. As long as you are intelligent enough (and now please read my lips very carefully) it will be completely irrelevant if you have ever seen the Scribes library or not.

3) No currently existing player has gotten any advantage whatsoever to join the Mages once they will be done. And before you even think about saying "But the master scrib...", read point 2) again, because apparently you didn't pay enough attention.

4) Scribe magic != Mage magic. Or for our non-coding audience: the Scribes' magic is not the same as the Mages' magic. I thought that was actually pretty clear, but maybe I was wrong.

5) Alright, I repeat myself, but please! For the love of god! Where do you people come up with those weird ideas?? Is there some alt.bizarre.geas.rumours newsgroup we wizards aren't aware of? Restricted to two or three people? What the... ? Well, let me tell you this: The Smurf village I have mentioned in another thread is much more likely to be coded than this.

And no, there is no "but", because as I mentioned before, we are still in the process of discussing a concept, so whatever you might have heard from other players about how it will be: it's wrong, because they don't know. It's simple as that.

End quote---

So no, you're not really getting any closer. At least, unless things have changed.

[Delia]

To sum it up, things proceed slowly and will ultimately take a whole different form than it is now. It is completely possible to take part in the ride and even affect it to a degree, which I think is very encouraged. I myself atleast feel so. There is a world of playtesting to be done, which why is one of the factors I don't feel 100% comfortable at using magic in PvP situations. To be frank, with every new addition it consists of bug/typo hunting and balance aspects to be considered. A world of work, player-wise and as for the people doing all the actual work behind it all...praise them.

[krelji]

This is a post from Abh. from some time ago.
...
...

Some time ago being almost 4 years in this case, and I'd have to assume that this
is the most recent knowledge you have regarding magic. I know that it's not the
case, but well....

So no, you're not really getting any closer. At least, unless things have changed.

As long as there are chars with magic-potential that are actually trying to get us to
the point where there are mages he's getting closer. And it doesn't matter if things
have changed or not.

[vurdijak]

As for my previous point, of course that post from Abh still stands true in my mind. Did I miss the post where backtracked on those former statements?

Not all of us can be magic guinea pigs, or else no other guilds would have anyone active. Also, not all of us have 10-15 days worth of play time to even get to the point where we could assist in the development of the magic system. Yes, for those of you that dont know, if you make a char. from scratch, become a scribe, and seek to do the right thing and help out by testing out spells, its going to take you from 10-15 days....thats between 240 and 360 hours of play time. If you have an old character that you devote to the cause maybe it will take less.

Sure, praise to the people who test it. Its awesome and wonderful and all that, but not all of us have that kind of free time.

[krelji]

As for my previous point, of course that post from Abh still stands true in my mind. Did I miss the post where backtracked on those former statements?

As far as I can tell you preferred to ignore the contents of a certain wiki page you
have access to. The contents of said page at least suggests that scribe magic will be
a subset of mages magic. As far as I am concerned this is a rather big change from:

4) Scribe magic != Mage magic. Or for our non-coding audience: the Scribes' magic is not the same as the Mages' magic. I thought that was actually pretty clear, but maybe I was wrong.

Not all of us can be magic guinea pigs, or else no other guilds would have anyone active.... If you have an old character that you devote to the cause maybe it will take less.

Who said that everyone has to be a guinea pig? An increase from the current active
magic guinea pigs would be nice and welcome, but that's about it. How long it takes
to qualify for the job is pretty much irrelevant, as you should only consider the job
as guinea pig if you are a) willing to help and more importantly b) have enough time
to spare.

[Delia]

Sure, praise to the people who test it. Its awesome and wonderful and all that, but not all of us have that kind of free time.

Intention was to say, praise to the people who code it, hence do the work.

As for spending online days and free time, sure it is not that easy as for the moment, trying to be a mage and all. You can, however, try to put in the effort and not be disencouraged as what I see usually happens. Geas is in the process of development, that is a fact in reality. Should one choose to live with it or not, it is one's choice alone.

[Delia]

From what I have now experienced, the most effective counter against a mage is a good fighter. A prepared, decent mage can more or less negate the combat capability of a miracle relient clerics, if that is what the mage has been going for(Delia vs. Sathos fight). There are very few counters against a quick thrust at the neck though. It all goes to show that no one tactic reigns supreme in Geas, even if it worked against most of the mud.

[Delia]

Just to add, a true terror team is a fighter, cleric and a mage. If you encounter one as your enemy, run. Just remembering teaming with Caelia and Luminier lately. Very effective

[caelia]

Just to add, a true terror team is a fighter, cleric and a mage. If you encounter one as your enemy, run. Just remembering teaming with Caelia and Luminier lately. Very effective

It does help when the mage is one of the most extraordinary fighters around, and the cleric is carrying little enough that she can keep up with the pace of the complete mayhem that the other two are leaving in their wake.

In all seriousness now, this arrangement has been extraordinarily fun. Caelia will only ever be a spectator when it comes to anything magical, but I've enjoyed my handful of chances to see it in action, and I do want those of you involved in developing the magic system - wizards and players - that I do appreciate your contributions, even if I do not fully know their depth.