The World

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Delia
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The World

#1 Post by Delia » Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:56 am

Ever wondered how you should think about the world of Geas?How many people there exactly are in the cities?Where do the cities draw their livelihood?Do they farm, trade, mine, forage or hunt and if yes then where,what and with whom?
Everytime I think about some aspect of Forostar I found myself with more questions than answers(if any), so I thought it might be good to establish some facts about the world we "live in".If some good discussion starts out maybe someone is inspired to code few fields to farm in or somesuch for the poor people of Forostar.

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tessa
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Re: The World

#2 Post by tessa » Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:02 am

I'd like to know where some of these NPCs live (IE; Virle).. there's not many houses, or any upstairs areas where shopkeepers 'live'.

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#3 Post by Abharsair » Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:52 am

It's mainly a matter of how much detail a player enjoys. Elvandar has houses where citizens live, but almost no one ever goes there, because there isn't much to do in them.

The same applies to fields where farmers would plant their crops. Sure, we can safely assume that someone actually grows wheat and other food, but would players enjoy to walk through hundreds of rooms where you only have the description of wheat all around you? I somehow doubt it. People would pass those rooms without a second glance.

So the question is: Would you (the players) prefer hundreds of additional rooms without much to do there for the sake of realism, or do you rather have only rooms which are unique and where there might be something to do, look at, find, etc.?
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#4 Post by Naga » Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:01 am

In a somewhat related question, what is the world? That is, how is the universe structured in Geas, what is its cosmology? Is it much like our own, or is it something radically different, such as Yggdrasil of Norse cosmology?

Image

Playing as a druid, I was acquainted with the realm of Elor and how it was separated from the world proper by mists, but as for a "big picture" I really have no idea. How are we to conceptualize how the world relates to hell, Taniel's heaven, Asral's halls, and other spiritual planes?

I really get the sense that this is as-yet defined lore, and there is so much information already in the world that whoever does formulate a systematic cosmology would have to take great care not to contradict anything that is already part of the world of Geas. Even as someone who eagerly wants to contribute to Geas's lore, I would be a bit afraid to go off on a limb with such an awesome task as defining the structure of the entire Geas universe, if only because of its potential to change and possibly restrict the game in countless ways forever.

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#5 Post by tessa » Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:20 am

Abharsair wrote:It's mainly a matter of how much detail a player enjoys. Elvandar has houses where citizens live, but almost no one ever goes there, because there isn't much to do in them.
I think the biggest problem is the doors. If they didn't have to be whomped on by weapons, I bet people would go in them more.

If they were gotten into more easily, I'd go in them. But 15 mins of trying to open a door with only a partial chance of finding something just isn't worth it, I think.
The same applies to fields where farmers would plant their crops. Sure, we can safely assume that someone actually grows wheat and other food, but would players enjoy to walk through hundreds of rooms where you only have the description of wheat all around you? I somehow doubt it. People would pass those rooms without a second glance.
Well, perhaps not the actual huge fields, but maybe just a farmhouse, barn, etc.? The fields could be in the desc. but not necessarily explorable.


I see what you mean, though. The rooms would be ignored by many. Though I'm sure a few would explore if there was something to find or a story/gossip/lore or something to be heard from the NPCs.
Last edited by tessa on Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#6 Post by lirynel » Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:23 am

I'm not sure we need a view of the cosmos.

With no science in the world how would anyone have any concepts of it, other than the movement of stars and moons and the sun..... I suspect with only that to go on we'd all have the medieval idea of our world being at the centre of the universe and with only one continent (at the moment) We'd probably subscribe to the flat earth theory too.

Or perhaps some of the religions of the world have different ideas so that there are different views of it, but I still don't see it as something vitally important to the world.

I wouldn't have a problem with a few fields about the bigger cities.. more of a token thah having hundreds of them and I'm sure someone with imagination could come up with some quests that would fit in there too.... scarecrows animals, haystacks, barns, farmhouses, goblins stealing the crops, a farmer or two to talk to... the fields don't have to entirely empty though I guess I'm suggesting a lot of work now.

Sorry

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#7 Post by Naga » Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:56 am

I'm not sure we need a view of the cosmos.

With no science in the world how would anyone have any concepts of it, other than the movement of stars and moons and the sun..... I suspect with only that to go on we'd all have the medieval idea of our world being at the centre of the universe and with only one continent (at the moment) We'd probably subscribe to the flat earth theory too.
Creative cosmologies are a traditional part of fantasy. Read Tolkien's works, especially the Silmarillion, and you will realize that the imagined, fantastic world of Tolkien is not bounded by the constraints of science, but rather approaches creative heights in a contrived world independent of the bonds of reality.

To me the question, "What is the world?" is as fundamental and important question in a fantasy environment as "What gods are there?" As lore, it is crucial as it provides a context for everything. Because Geas is fantastic by nature, there is no need for the world to revolve around the sun and for it to be round, but have everyone think otherwise.

Fantasy is all about speculation, an alterative world that is wholly different from our own, its own alternate reality operating according to its own principles. Good fantasy (ancient mythologies included) defines these principles through such things as lore on gods and cosmology, much as Tolkien did. Fantasy games are no exception; Dungeons and Dragons, an absorbing tabletop RPG, organizes its cosmology into "planes of existence" of three types (spatial, substantial, and demiplanes) and of infinite size and scope arranged as a series of concentric circles.

Through my years of experience, Geas has consistently been the most complex (I'm not just talking about the technology, but also the interaction of the personalities of the players and the lore), detailed, and overall best fantasy game playable on the computer. This is just something it owes itself.

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#8 Post by Devi » Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:20 pm

abharsair wrote: Would you (the players) prefer hundreds of additional rooms without much to do there for the sake of realism, or do you rather have only rooms which are unique and where there might be something to do, look at, find, etc.?
(skip ahead for the short answer)
Personally, I love hundreds if not thousands of extra rooms in muds. I remember one I played in which it would take about 5 minutes to get to another city. Once you left the city, it was surrounded by fields of wheat farms filled with scarecrows, their crows, bunnies, moles - a newbie area of sorts. After walking through the farms were the plains, followed by the savannah (filled with a very few lions) and finally the desert, which was very difficult to move through (quicksand traps and desert storms blocking exits as they pleased). Although very few stopped to study the rooms (I don't even think they had descriptions), it gave the world an amazing atmosphere and vastness. It was exciting to ride through the plains on a horse, and struggle through vast desert on a mule.

This mud also had the most detailed city I've ever seen, with well over 300 rooms and at least 40 shops and player housing. The city was most impressive though because it had many little things to discover (I remember a gondala which rode down the river and delivered you to some shops on the other side). It felt vast and realistic. The game's atmosphere was very easy to get lost in. Too bad it wasn't rping enforced and the other characters very much sucked.

(short answer) More detail=good.
I think a lot is currently on the imagination of the players. For example, I imagine Arborea being a vast city that we can't really access for whatever reason. I imagine the streets to be crowded and the townsquare to be more so. There are apartments everywhere (lining the streets) and fields outside the city. However, in reality, Arborea has about 10 npcs residents (excluding guards which there are more than 10 of), 2 apartments, no fields, an empty townsquare and empty pubs. The room emotes are wonderful sometimes, but other times they feel silly because it seems so empty.

Apologies for the book-length reply. :)

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#9 Post by iza » Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:04 am

I'm with devi on this, while unique rooms are great and there should still be plenty of, I like to see way more filler rooms. Esspecially in say the forests between the cities and other places.

Instead of walking a long distance, more walking short distances to get the feel of how big the world is. That way when you do find a unique room with something to do in it, it does feel like more of an accomplishment.
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#10 Post by Delia » Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:27 pm

I second the filler rooms too...but moreso I'd like some cosmology and lore and a more complete "feel" of the world around the character.I understand players could contribute much in this regard.It should not be considered a thing that is must to know by every char(or player) as most propably some aren't that interested in that kind of stuff.Too bad I'm pretty lazy to write and think stuff up, though I tend to have the rare creative writing spree, and what goes to the "no science" in Geas part there are the alchemists and scribes trying to make sense of the world around them and cataloquing and analysing the world around them...maybe someday something concrete as in inventions comes out of it, who knows?
The universe of Geas is a big question mark for me also, I for one would like to know what sort of "afterlives" the gods offer, where do the deities live, what is possibly beyond the mortals eye?
One other thing I find myself thinking is if gods resurrect most the people that die, how do people actually die the final death? I mean there should be a lot of people if few actually die...and then you can proceed to the mind of a person who has "died a thousand deaths", that would be something indeed...

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#11 Post by Abharsair » Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:34 am

Just a short update: I'm currently trying to make the new city I am working on to appear "more alive". Which includes a larger and more dynamic population. Of course it is a fine line between "alive" and "spammy". Anyway, you can see for youself what I mean once you can get there.
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#12 Post by chara » Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:10 am

I really like a world where no cosmology is held true by every culture. I like having a few hard-held facts, and then a variety of ways those facts can be interpreted. I don't think in the world of Geas, any person would doubt that gods exist, for example. But the nature, where they live, what they do in their free time, these are all things that people can speculate about but not have hard answers to.

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#13 Post by Delia » Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:53 am

How about any holy days and celebrations in the world of Geas? obviously each religion has its own specials days/weeks when they feel closer to their gods and necessary rituals are performed, and the common folk too, obviously has some days/weeks to celebrate in order to forget the dreary existence they live in.
Easy ones would be arrival day for humans, founding of cities, when wars have ended, great victories or defeats mourning or celebrating famour war heroes.
Ok...the idea goes it would be fun if such "special" days/weeks could exist codewise, if not only appearing but with some special emotes in the cities, or if the wizzies are feeling like coding hard, then with even extra npc's appearing (jugglers, merchants, travellers...etc...) to the cities during festivities.Any good ideas for these "special days" for royalty, clergy and common alike?

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#14 Post by tessa » Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:28 am

I agree with Delia. The world of GEAS seems to drag on one regular day after another, without any celebrations going on. Sure, we have attacks and raids, but no 'good' events.

I mean, I was kind of surprised when 1099 turned to 1100 and it was like no one cared or even realized it happened. In GEAS, I would think that a turn of a century would be an event that would be celebrated or at least noted.

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#15 Post by Devi » Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:55 pm

I like Delia's idea. :)

I imagine seasonal festivals on Forostar. Like a winter festival for the twin moons, complete with masquerade ball, jugglers and firedancers, and a summer festival for the sun (this could be Taniel-inspired thing). There could also be a festival in Spring for Evren and one in the Fall for the harvest.

They could also be completely unrelated to Geas time and occur during ooc holidays. For example, the moon festival could occur every 5 ic years during the week of ooc halloween.

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#16 Post by Kortha » Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:57 pm

Holidays would rock. And since players rarely notice new years now, maybe various npc's could start babbling about how it's almost new years or something. There could be special costumes or something like fireworks, maybe those little pinwheel things that spin when you blow on them, and have shops sell them during the holidays. Maybe inns could sell special turkey dinners or something.

And I wanna make a snowman! hehe
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#17 Post by Delia » Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:00 pm

That raises another topic i've been wondering...with all this alchemy around, is there blackpowder(or somesuch) around, is it possible in the future, is it ever going to be?Of course the consequences would be drastic when someone discovers other applications for the stuff...(referring to fireworks)

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#18 Post by genesis » Wed Jul 20, 2005 7:01 pm

Abharsair wrote:So the question is: Would you (the players) prefer hundreds of additional rooms without much to do there for the sake of realism, or do you rather have only rooms which are unique and where there might be something to do, look at, find, etc.?
I think I agree with Devi, who mentioned that the "feel of the world" is straight comparable to the amount of the rooms. While I agree that it is good to have varying descriptions, I also think that simply describing "You travel a very long distance to the north" doesn't really give the same response for the player as walking through ten or twenty rooms. After all, especially later after you've first explored the rooms, the travelling becomes more hitting a key than really looking where you travel at.
Delia wrote:How about any holy days and celebrations in the world of Geas?
I really like the idea. However, many of the celebrations and holidays we have are - true - derived from either 1) actual happenings or 2) religious (?) writings. Arborea might start celebrating the Day of Woundweaver's Death, for example, with the currently written history - you just have to "decide" its date - that is, write a story about it. And it doesn't really have to include anything else. And as it is with such stories, it should stick with the history "already invented".

In Geas, we do have different days. They are named after a virtue, which also dictates some "special" for that day of the week. The days are, as listed in help time: Spirituality, Sacrifice, Honesty, Honor, Humility, Valor, Justice and Compassion.

I don't think it would be too hard to code certain "dates", such as the one I proposed, and the Victory over Insects and so on. I would go for that - at least inventing some days.

Few mundane celebrations for Arborea: Victory Over Insects (the day the insects retreated for good), Magnus Woundweaver's Death (the founder of Legion and "savior of Forostar" died), Founding Arborea (autumn, I'd say), The Day of Landing (spring, I'd say), the Day of Kings (traditional day to bury the dead king and give him the crown, Arborea)
Few mundane celebrations for Elvandar: Queen Gwenlanea's Birthday (obvious), the day of the Sharpshooter (midsummer festival day, many shooting contests), the day of the Knight (midwinter festival, many jousting contests)
Few religious, for Taniel: The day of Creation (creation of first elves), the day of First Blood (when Taniel first battled Lilith, celebrated today with to-first-blood-duels), the Day of Sacrifices (when ten priests of Taniel sacrificed themselves for a huge rain to pour over Lilith's army (Just invented this one).
Few religious, for Asral: The Day of Death (Asral's elite group battled against Sathonys to the death; celebrated with to-the-death battles), the Day of Burning Scythe (when Asral first granted his chosen the miracle of burning scythes)
Few religious, for Sathonys: The Day of Thorns (when a rebellious necromancer was put on a thorn fence to face death and became a lich; celebrated with killing), the Day of Death (see Asral's; celebrated with killing Asralites), the Day of Chains (when Evren gave free will to humans, some remained in Sahonys' chains; celebrated by saccing humans), the Day of Pain (celebrated by whipping innocent women), the Day of Ascension (when the first necromancer ascended to lich; celebrated by killing heretics), the day of Prophecy (when Sathonys gives his prophecies to his chosen people) and so on...

Oh well, I let me imagination loose again. *fetches the chain again*

...blackpowder...
I would be really careful about adding such things to the game.
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#19 Post by Delia » Wed Jul 20, 2005 9:22 pm

With blackpowder...I agree, I don't know if it is really needed (personally maybe no ), though maybe advanced (but really primitive when considered RL) might someday be available...dunno

Good ideas with holidays, btw!...maybe i'll have the guts to write something up someday...though i'm pretty lazy writer.

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#20 Post by iza » Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:33 pm

I'd also really like to see more RP guildlines. Basically documents stating "This is how things are/work in geas, if you don't want to RP this way please have a good Ic reason for it"
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