Tshahark Details

[eirikeld]

An interesting conversation came about the other day, concerning halforcs, halfogres, and the likes. One idea brought up, was a half-tshahark. This lead to questions that I can not find answers for.

Do they reproduce at all? I would say so, since the help file says "Now that their population is growing again...". This leads to the next questions...

How? Human anatomy, or is it more reptilian?

Do they lay eggs, or have live births? Some species of snakes have live birth, most reptiles lay eggs.

What are the newly born like?

Are there any familial ties? Humans of course nurture their young [usually] but most reptiles do not.

Not that I am into lizard porn, but these are some fundamental questions I could not find answers to on a quick run through the helpfiles, forums, or wiki.

I guess lots of this boils down to "How lizard / reptile / suarian like are they?"

[Naga]

viewtopic.php?t=716
(A somewhat recent tshahark thread)

It seems to me like "increasing population" could just mean that more are simply waking up from the Dwarven castle in which they presently sleep. It would be interesting if the notion of reproducing tshaharks were just something of a popular fear rooted in racial anxieties...

Would tshaharks even have time to reproduce? Are there any tshahark peasants or farmers or craftsmen? Nearly all, male and female, are engaged as warriors or guards or mercenaries. Although they may represent quite a few adventurers, by and large they seem an extreme rarity, a little blip on the social radar of Forostar, but present in sufficient numbers to justify routine hatred and fear on the part of the less-tolerant (just about everyone).

Why the hell is it that elves seem more tolerant towards tshaharks than to humans, anyway? If it is lack of refinement, brutishness, uncouth words, loudness, and stink that makes a human repugnant to an elf, a tshahark is that ten times over. What is it about humans that cause them to hate tshaharks more than the elves, the fact that human blood was mixed with lizards' to create the monsters?

Although I make extreme claims against the tshaharks, the attitude I tend to take is that the tshaharks constitute a sort of achievement by magic, although ugly and with certain unforeseen consequences, and should be treated like any dumb creature made to serve man: as property, as chattel to be bought and sold, to fight and die so that it is possible for civilized men to do civilized things. The hatred begins when tshaharks are legitimized as "equal," talk is made of "bias," and "discrimination," when anything other than systematic oppression is proposed for them.

[tessa]

Not all tshaharks were made from humans (shinji), mind you. And maybe why humans dislike tshaharks more than elves is because elves are at least more similar to humans (smaller and thinner with pointy ears and almond eyes, give or take) and not to mention have plenty of good-looking females, whereas tshaharks are far different (resembling humans only in shape, give or take), and are probably considered closer to goblinoids than the more civilized races by some.

As for why elves may like tshaharks more than humans.. well, perhaps both are brutish and primitive and rude (hence why elves hate dwarves, since they're even worse than humans), but whereas humans choose to be that way, the simple mindset of tshaharks limits them to being unable to be anything else. Keep in mind that according to lore, the elves ultimately allowed humans to stay on Forostar out of pity of their primitive culture ("But others thought that it was the duty of the elves to help poor and weak beings, and that the humans should be supported."). It would not be surprising if similar pity was expressed towards tshaharks.

Another reason why they might like tshaharks more than humans could be because tshaharks fought off the horrific Insects of Sathonys, whereas humans were responsible for the destruction of the elves' beloved Eal-Deliah, and responsible for a lost loved one in likely every elven family (not to mention coming from Sathonys, which most elves have grown to loathe, probably doesn't help).

[Naga]

It is also true that, as a result of the Insects, the humans and elves were forced to stand together as allies, and it is the humans who were instrumental in discovering the tshahark ritual.With the exception of a few elves, apparently, like Shinji (though it is not mentioned anywhere), it was the humans who were transformed into tshaharks. Consequently, the tshaharks principally fought under the command of humans during the Insect War.

The NPCs in both Elvandar and Arborea treat elves and humans pretty well, and with all this considered, I do not see how elves could come to regard humans as lower than tshaharks, as seems popular these days, and I think it is more a result of convenience than any gratitude to the tshaharks, who at that time were more an instrument than an actor.

[tessa]

It could also be that most tshahark pcs are cute and cuddly, and not all human pcs (or even npcs, which humans have plenty of and tshaharks have next to none) are quite that way.

[isengoo]

I find it irritating that tshaharks are even capable of being 'cute and cuddly' which I suppose could translate into 'forces of infinite good'.

When I imagine a tshahark, I see a ravenous fighting machine that has no regard for life or decency or societal norms. How this was taken and put into a 'good guy' context is beyond me, to be frank.

[tessa]

Because I think some people don't pay attention to the fact that they're dealing with a short-tempered and aggressive beastman lizard, or an undead murderous sathonite priest, or so on, as long as said individual smiles and acts cheerful.

[jezz]

I find it irritating that tshaharks are even capable of being 'cute and cuddly' which I suppose could translate into 'forces of infinite good'.

When I imagine a tshahark, I see a ravenous fighting machine that has no regard for life or decency or societal norms. How this was taken and put into a 'good guy' context is beyond me, to be frank.

Because I think some people don't pay attention to the fact that they're dealing with a short-tempered and aggressive beastman lizard, or an undead murderous sathonite priest, or so on, as long as said individual smiles and acts cheerful.

I think the cause for every tshahark to be good is the first approach of "dumb" for a tshahark. We have seen in infinite films the typical dumb guy, strong and big who only wants to help the little lost children go out of the dark labyrinth of his master.

So there you go, dumb and strong tshaharks that "don't want evils to harm good good friends who give food poor tshahark".

After that first approach though, and after they start to get very powerful (1 or 2 week after creation) tshaharks start to increase their intelligence until they become amazing tacticians and leaders.

I guess that's part of the fun of a MUD though.

As for people smiling at half-undead sathonys priests... Ehrrrm... duuhh... *confused* Either I'm drinking too much alcohol those last weeks and my brain is not at full strength or I'm not understanding the last posts

[tessa]

As for people smiling at half-undead sathonys priests... Ehrrrm... duuhh... *confused* Either I'm drinking too much alcohol those last weeks and my brain is not at full strength or I'm not understanding the last posts

I'm referring to a few (starting to get to be more than a few now) occasions where I've heard characters say that Sathos in general are much more pleasant and enjoyable company to have than the <insert negative adjective/s here> Tanielites/Crusaders, and therefore don't seem to be bad people after all (despite being darkelves/ghouls/priests of death and destruction).

[kaspars]

Tessa wrote:

... and therefore don't seem to be bad people after all (despite being darkelves/ghouls/priests of death and destruction).

well, I dont think beeing darkelf or priest of death and destruction means he should simply tear apart all that comes in his way. There are many ways to promote our Master.

Kaspars silently hisses: HE will be very pleased.
Kaspars smiles sweetly.
Kaspars cuts open the veins of you.

Besides - elven meat is much better then pig or deer. No wonder gourmands like our dinners.

[tessa]

well, I dont think beeing darkelf or priest of death and destruction means he should simply tear apart all that comes in his way.

I agree with that, but from a personal perspective, I would probably enjoy a satho/ghoul/darkelf's presence like I would a homicidal serial-killer in real-life. Maybe he'll kill me, maybe he won't, but it's the kind of person I would want to stay away from, and definitely not the sort I would want to have a friendly conversation with and befriend, or ever feel safe that I won't be the next victim.

And probably, if someone told me they enjoyed the presence of that sort of person over others, I would probably distance my association with that someone, too.

[jezz]

I agree with that, but from a personal perspective, I would probably enjoy a satho/ghoul/darkelf's presence like I would a homicidal serial-killer in real-life. Maybe he'll kill me, maybe he won't, but it's the kind of person I would want to stay away from, and definitely not the sort I would want to have a friendly conversation with and befriend, or ever feel safe that I won't be the next victim.

If we have managed to be seen in GEAS as what you describe here... I'm very happy

[tessa]

It's how I see you all.. now the fun part is convincing the people that think you're cuter and cuddlier than Crusaders.

[isengoo]

I think what I'm having trouble understanding is how everyone can get along better with a naturally, intrinsically warmongering beast (tshahark) than everyone can get along with a human or an elf who has simply decided to do unspeakable things.

Yes, they both do unspeakable things - this is not my point of contention - it is simply bred into the tshahark to be that way. It is their natural state. It is not the natural state of any other player race to do such things (excepting darkelves, of course, but luckily you don't see many darkelves operating within 'good' guilds anymore). This should be taken into account when dealing with and playing tshaharks, if you ask me.

[eirikeld]

This thread is not quite what I had in mind when I started it, but they seldom are I suppose.

While I would agree with Isen's points for the most part, that tshaharks seem to be cuter and cuddlier than would be expected, I will explain how mine became so to the extent that he is.

Basically, I tried to make a simple, seriously simple tshahark, who bashes first, last, and in between. He came from a simple background of a dirt poor community [not having much to go on from where the hell they come from, but that was part of the original post of this thread]. One of the first people he came across was Ram. Wow, another tshahark! great! with a friend like that, and a simple mind, it is easy to see falling into some of Ram's ways. He still eats boars, but now follows Evren.

When most of the tshaharks in the game are already on one side, the new ones finding Forostar easily fall in with their "brosers". I am not placing blame anywhere. This is just how I see the dynamic currently playing out. Yes, to some degree I am guilty of making him cuddlier than need be, and I will give these ideas some thought on either a new one, or possible character evolution.

[adanath]

After that first approach though, and after they start to get very powerful (1 or 2 week after creation) tshaharks start to increase their intelligence until they become amazing tacticians and leaders.

Well see Adanth can't read very well, or anything else for that matter. So it's kind of like a dumb guy only doing one thing his whole life, eventually he gets to be decent at it.

As far as people liking tshaharks, if a guy comes into the room and is cordial and nice to you as well as 10 feet tall and 450 lbs are you going to show your dislike towards him?

I imagine them like English mastiffs, huge (and some think ugly), however gentle and fiercely loyal to where they commit their allegiances. They may not know in complexity why they believe what they do, but they know simply what goes against what they believe.

Humans dislike tshaharks I think because it is a symptom that is age-old of people disliking losing control over something. Especially something they created. Humans lost control and not only that but tshaharks became a force, and one they reckon as less than a true "sentient" being.

[adanath]

As far as the history of tshaharks, much of this can be learned in game. Suffice it to say that most of them are in kind of a stasis sleep and have been since creation..which is how they survived when the humans warred them. There are a lot more details in game that can be gleaned.

[luminier]

really there are? i must be looking in all the wrong places, i wish to know more of my tshahark brethern.

[Grimforge]

I have only got the basic information to draw on, but one thing stands out:

"Nearly exterminated but not yet beaten, the survivors fled into some mountains where they took an abandoned castle in possession. They restored the castle and made it their home. Now that their population is growing again ..."

So we have a race that can count, speak, learn advanced weapon and armour skills and capable of construction/renovation. They may be comparatively brutish and unintelligent compared to humans and elves but so were human precursor species. We wore clothing and jewellery and were capable of tool manufacture, tool use and intelligent group hunting tactics long before we developed a full language.

[Skragna]

Tshahark were created to fight. You can look at any number of real life creatures that fight, such as wolves, lions, cheetahs, leopards, tigers, snakes, lizards, etc. They all have no real intelligence, but they have CUNNING. All a warrior really needs is cunning. He doesn't need to know exactly how much of his opponent's armor is made of steel and how much of iron, just that it's thick plate armor and likely to slow them down. Then he can adjust his fighting accordingly. Like wolves taking down buffalo. Aim for the legs, stay behind them, strike quickly and move away. Tshahark can understand that basic concept, even if they're not intelligent enough to count past three, or barely able to speak their names.