Quests

[Abharsair]

I'm not implying that we are planning to change the quest system, but I'm curious what the player base thinks, so please vote.

I'll also list a couple reasons for and against quest experience, so that you can make up your minds more easily:

Pro Quest Experience:
+ Faster character growth
+ More motivation to do a quest and thus get to know the world
+ Less need to grind monsters to improve physical stats
+ Makes quests an almost mandatory part of the game

Contra Quest Experience:
- Makes no sense to get stronger for solving mental tasks, and the other way around
- Makes repeating quests with alts almost mandatory, which can be very boring
- Requires to know how to set stat preferences, which is expecially for newbies almost impossible to understand
- Tempts evil characters to be good (and vice versa) in order to get the experience
- Makes quests an almost mandatory part of the game

[Andreati]

I vote to leave it the way it is.

"We are not EqualOpportunity MUD."
--Abharsair

[Zengo]

I have voted to leave it the way it is.

Usually a major change like that would annoy some people who have gotten used to it over the years. It seemed to be working just fine before.

[Abharsair]

I vote to leave it the way it is.

I have no problem with that, and as I said I am mostly just curious. But maybe you could tell us why you think that? What makes you think it's better to reward someone with experience for a quest, than with let's say a limited piece of equipment, skill points, useful knowledge (something like how to dissect minecrawler plates) or just a monetary reward?

Actually, it might be nice (and useful) if everyone who casts a vote gives a short explanation why he/she voted the way he/she did.

"We are not EqualOpportunity MUD."
--Abharsair

I like how you quote wise men!

[vurdijak]

I voted yes, but only if characters stay roughly the same size.

While the current system is not broken, generally fair, and challenging, I like the idea of Geas being different in most ways from other muds. A lot of muds give XP for quests, and I think this is one more way that Geas could differentiate itself and set itself above its rivals.

I think xp for quests is mildly antithematic. Geas is a learn by doing mud, and players who know how to adjust their stats can bolster stats that they rarely or never use, simply by performing the right series of tasks with stat preferences set accordingly.

I think this is an opportunity to add more color (colour?) to the game and to highlight some of the great features that already exist but are overlooked. I especially like Abharsair's idea of parceling out bits of useful knowledge when a quest is completed. This knowledge could arguably be as valuable as the experience that is now awarded.

As a side note, I think the 'help level' command should be disabled entirely. Even though I love being able to check that slow progression, I prefer a truly level-less mud.

[Andreati]

Andreati wrote:
"We are not EqualOpportunity MUD."

This was my explanation. I agree with Zengo's idea, that it would be a pain to change the system when so many people have gotten used to it, and I think that it would annoy me greatly about now. Plus there would be a huge gap between the chars made before the change/after the change, which could be handled unfairly for both sides. If you decide to leave the pre-change chars as they are, you'll annoy the chars that come after the change. But if you decide to lower the stats of the pre-change chars to equalize them better, you'll piss off all of the chars whose stats are lowered.

Hmm...I guess a large part of my wanting to stay with the current system is not because of thinking good of the current system (although I certainly do), but instead of not really liking the listed alternatives.

I have a suggestion. Replacement quest rewards could be things like:
- gold coins (more than now)
- reputation (more/less than now)
but also for important quests some special items/artifacts. Say you solve a quest and you a "flaming sword" or a "magic ring". In order to prevent it from becoming a permanent advantage, you could set a time- or charge limit. I.e. it uses up charges or goes weak/puffs in 30 IRL days. This means solving a quest gives you a real advantage and a nice temporary boost, however it is not necessary for the long-term improvement of your character. Combined with gold and reputation, I think it should be possible to create incitaments to solve those quests still.

For some people, gold isn't an incentive to do things, nor is reputation. Look at Andy. She doesn't go flaunting off her money, nor does she really go looking to make it. Anybody who knows her well enough knows she tends to give it all away/buy drinks with it. As for reputation, well, Asrals have got it bad anyway!

I think that temporary items is also not a good incentive. There are already more than enough bad-ass/magical/specialized weapons/armours/items in the game that are permanent, and as..some people said in some post, if you have an item, you don't want it to be temporary, you want to keep it forever (or for as long as possible/until sneaky bastards steal it).

This means solving a quest gives you a real advantage and a nice temporary boost, however it is not necessary for the long-term improvement of your character.

I've had more than one char who have done just fine without doing too many quests; she/he/it/they stuck with roleplay and being a general nuisance to society. Apart from that, like someone in some post said, if you can't solve it alone, bother someone else to do it with you!

"We are not EqualOpportunity MUD."
--Abharsair

I like how you quote wise men!

The good lord hath given me praise! I shall cut off my knees in happiness.

[sun]

Actually, it might be nice (and useful) if everyone who casts a vote gives a short explanation why he/she voted the way he/she did.

The reason I voted "yes" is because I like the idea of just playing my character and do whatever things I enjoy, knowing that it is in those areas I will also improve. I do not want to have to drag myself around in quests just to get good at those things. Simple sticking around and doing the stuff you feel like without being forced to do some other (slightly repetitive) quests.

My other reason is the "alt"-reason. It could be argued it is more realistic to require each character to do the quests. However, if you see to the point of a quest, mostly something fun for the po, it kind of gets lost when you have to do it a second time. And you really have to. I guess it might become more evident after some years of playing. You really don't want to repeat stuff you have already done a few times.

Apart from that, I believe it is good to strive for more realism and more learning-by-doing which means more power to flesh out your character exactly as you want it.

[triska]

I voted leave it as it is because I know many players love the quests and the way it gets them stronger and possibly wiser.

Personally I struggle to do the quests cause it calls for a lot of strength to do some of them which my character cannot do without help. I know I cannot attempt many because of location and the fact she is too weak to explore those areas alone and often there are no teams willing to take her or simply no one about on her time zone.

Also I am thick! I find working out the syntax and working out the quests requirements needed very difficult. I guess the longer you play the more you know the world so the more quests you will do, but my character will always stay small cause of the reasons I offer above .

I am not whining about this but just giving an explanation of my personal characters ability and style of play will never make her equal to the power players.

[Abharsair]

This was my explanation. I agree with Zengo's idea, that it would be a pain to change the system when so many people have gotten used to it, and I think that it would annoy me greatly about now. Plus there would be a huge gap between the chars made before the change/after the change, which could be handled unfairly for both sides. If you decide to leave the pre-change chars as they are, you'll annoy the chars that come after the change. But if you decide to lower the stats of the pre-change chars to equalize them better, you'll piss off all of the chars whose stats are lowered.

Just a clarification: By removing quest experience and increasing the amount of skill experience by a certain factor for everyone, or by just using a different formula to calculate stats, most older characters would keep similar stats (with small but largely insignificant fluctuations), while new characters have no disadvantage whatsoever. So that's not really an issue. What could happen, however, is a certain shift to either physical or mental stats, but the average stats would be about the same.

[adanath]

Yes, keep it as it is.

Why? If it isn't broken, don't fix it. That is the short answer. Quests are available to characters of all sizes and small quests are easy ways for young characters to get quick experience so they don't die instantly as well as coins. Quests in the end if you roleplay them like you are doing them the first time with your character can be quite rewarding from a knowledge standpoint as well as xp standpoint. If you change it to anything else you are going to throw things off and have more complaints versed, no matter how you do it. Not all characters have any need of nor any desire of gold. Yet experience is something that can be valuable to all players, fighters, non-fighters alike. It is a chance to increase your acumen and a reward for playing through quests, if anything I think some older quests should be de-activated and newer ones activated to change up play.

[sun]

Just a few comments..

For some people, gold isn't an incentive to do things, nor is reputation. Look at Andy. She doesn't go flaunting off her money, nor does she really go looking to make it. Anybody who knows her well enough knows she tends to give it all away/buy drinks with it. As for reputation, well, Asrals have got it bad anyway!

I probably should not have used to word "incentive" here, because it might have sounded like I wanted people to do the quests for the reward rather than for RP reasons. However, I do think people should be rewarded, and some of those ideas I gave, just from the top of my head, could perhaps be improved. But yes, it does mean toning down the long-term reward from quests - that is the whole point. If you are rich, you might not need gold and if you are holy you might not care about reputation. But then again, I think helping someone should be done by RP reasons, not because you know you will get candy in the end.

We have to ask ourselves which way we want it: do we want people to run through the quests to get XP or do we want them to do it because they are nice (or possible evil) characters who like doing good/evil deeds?

I think that temporary items is also not a good incentive. There are already more than enough bad-ass/magical/specialized weapons/armours/items in the game that are permanent, and as..some people said in some post, if you have an item, you don't want it to be temporary, you want to keep it forever (or for as long as possible/until sneaky bastards steal it).

My suggestion of making it temporary was just to prevent permanent improvement. Because if you do get this permanent boost, then you will also need it. So, it is exactly like the system we have. Why don't you want it temporary? Let's say you get a temporary blessing to your current weapon or armour which increases damage by 50% for 30 days. That's simply an improvement! Naturally permanent rewards are better, but then again, the whole point was make them temporary.

I've had more than one char who have done just fine without doing too many quests; she/he/it/they stuck with roleplay and being a general nuisance to society. Apart from that, like someone in some post said, if you can't solve it alone, bother someone else to do it with you!

Everything is possible, but that is IMHO besides the point. Yes you can be "fine", but you still need the quests to get good at some things - it is not 100% learning-by-doing. For example, to improve your strength, you need to fetch a chocolate cake and give it to a beggar. That just doesn't make any sense to me. And if you ever want to get really strong, you need to haul that chocolate.

I could somehow accept that physical quests give physical points, but even then, it does not make any sense that the instant you give the head of the bad guy back to the good guy, your muscles grow with 5%. They grow continously as you keep smashing foes, resting and eating! Even to solve tasks which require intelligence you need continous stimulation. And then we suddenly are at "gaining-by-doing"..

[sun]

Why? If it isn't broken, don't fix it. That is the short answer.

I don't understand this really. We should not improve anything becuase of what? Fear that it might be good? The whole point is that the type of reward for doing quests is kind of broken.

There has been plenty of "big" changes on the MUD and before each, people has complained about it and was afraid of this and that, mostly related to their stats (which probably are well-earned). But then, after the change, most were rather happy becuase "it really did make more sense" and yet today people still play Geas....

[vurdijak]

If it isn't broken, don't fix it.

This is not a good reason to leave the system as is. If this mentality prevailed, then players and mortals alike would get complacent and stop looking for ways to improve the mud. Geas isn't broke. I played it just last night. Are you saying we shouldn't improve it?

if anything I think some older quests should be de-activated and newer ones activated to change up play

There's an idea. I would just suggest that as the newer quests are added, the XP earning is phased out and replaced with more thematic rewards/motives.

[Andreati]

Are you saying we shouldn't improve it?

What I think we're trying to say is that we don't think it needs 'improving' and that it's fine as it is.

if anything I think some older quests should be de-activated and newer ones activated to change up play

I don't think it's fair to delete the older quests, but I agree that new ones should be added (and probably are being/have been).

[isengoo]

I voted yes, because it affects everyone the same and there are no disadvantages to doing them. Abh, you yourself pretty much pointed out the exact reason to get rid of the big experience bonus attached to quests:

- Tempts evil characters to be good (and vice versa) in order to get the experience
- Makes quests an almost mandatory part of the game

When you put these two things together, you just have a roleplay killer. Why on Geas would a devout, Taniel-fearing elf ever sacrifice himself to some crazy Sathonyte cult in the middle of a swamp? Why, for experience, of course! The same can be said over and over for countless other quests where people simply foresake their roleplay to get the experience prize at the end.

I know this happens because I've done it countless times. Everyone does it, it's unavoidable when the reward is so great and the cost is as minor as saying "well, I don't like helping so-and-so, but let's hope that they change their ways" or something equally stupid.

Since there will never be adequate repercussions for 'good' people doing 'bad' quests and 'bad' people doing 'good' quests, and since there will never be any sort of balance between the two, I say just remove the carrot altogether.

[amrat]

I voted "yes, just get rid of it".

Easily the biggest reason for this vote is the effect of quests on roleplay. As a (semi-)mandatory part of the game most of them are a reward on bad RP and grey, boring, hack'n slash-type "hero" characters. I haven't considered quests to be IC (when avoidable) for years and tend to do most of them solo so there are no witnesses to these embarrassing moments.

The main reason to keep the quests' XP reward for me would be their diversifying effect. A big problem in Geas in my opinion is that becoming a jack-of-all-trades is too easy and almost everyone learns a far too wide array of skills and abilities, whereas really trying to become an expert in something doesn't pay off (since there are always dozens of others who have the skill maxed). Quest XP goes into stats based on your choice allowing similar characters to be at least a bit different. I would hate a situation where for example you would need to learn thief skills to get the dexterity to become a master woodcrafter. I do not think quest XP is the right solution to this problem though, but that would be another thread.

Although not really considered a quests, I think closing the portal and the tower of Pain are the best quests around. They tend to get repetitive after some time and they have some big flaws that make it hard for characters outside small groups to participate, but contrary to all the "real quests" they have a real purpose in the world. One possible quest type not yet mentioned that I think I might enjoy would be guild related quests, needed for joining or advancement.

The reward being something else than XP would also give a reason to redo some of them.

@Amrat

[luminier]

if ive said it once ill say it again. can we spend time on things thats _are_ in fact broken? lol i mean comon i back adanath 100% on this one.

i mean no disrespect, this mud rocks.

[gojin]

I voted yes. My reasoning goes like this:

1)The temptation to compromise rp for the sake of 'necessary' xp is real and a problem imo.

2)If chars stay the same size or get smaller is no real difference since those concerned are concerned with PVP. Everyone will be affected so PVP should not be too different.

3)There will still be quests. Only the rewards would be different ie-no xp.

4)I see no real positive to keeping quest xp system other than it would give the wizzies one less thing to worry about. If the wizards think it would be worth changing I would definately agree with them.

[eirikeld]

I dislike certain elements found in many quests. It is terrible RP to simply walk into someone's house, and then ask them if they need help. Yet this is precisely what some quests demand. Also, I agree that many of the quests are too simple [find monster, kill monster].

All of that being said, I vote to keep the system as it is, for these reasons:
* There are better things for the wizards to be coding / fixing
* The problem of Rp in quests can be addressed by modifying some, removing others, and introducing replacements
* The quests are something fun to do now and then, other than beating on my 10 millionth greenskin
* While I love the learn by doing mechanic, I believe quests are a great way to help people explore [Lliw's underground runaround anyone?]
* Quests are also a great way to get some starting money, especially a way that doesn't involve killing dozens or hundreds of thildens / gremlins

[Abharsair]

I think there are some misconceptions.

All of that being said, I vote to keep the system as it is, for these reasons:
* There are better things for the wizards to be coding / fixing
* The problem of Rp in quests can be addressed by modifying some, removing others, and introducing replacements

Replacing quests with new ones is actually much more work than just getting rid of the quest experience, and handing out alternative rewards.

* The quests are something fun to do now and then, other than beating on my 10 millionth greenskin

The quests would still be there.

* While I love the learn by doing mechanic, I believe quests are a great way to help people explore [Lliw's underground runaround anyone?]

The quests would still be there.

* Quests are also a great way to get some starting money, especially a way that doesn't involve killing dozens or hundreds of thildens / gremlins

The monetary reward would still be there, and would actually be increased in many cases.