Lifespan of different races

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Delia
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Lifespan of different races

#1 Post by Delia » Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:26 am

I know elves supposedly can live forever.
Humans are, well humans with respective life-expectancy.
After this it gets fuzzy...(or I've just missed this completely)
Tshaharks are shorter lived than humans?
Dwarves might pull off a century or two or even three if lucky?
Halflings live bit longer than humans?

I think this should be common knowledge but I still am quite unclear about all this. Could we have a definite answer or something?
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Re: Lifespan of different races

#2 Post by anglachel » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:05 am

Lets say that the average maxium age for a human will be 80 years in Geas.
Then a dwarf can reach a age of 200 years, a elf or darkelf are able to live 480 years, a halfelf can reach 120 years and a halfling can reach 160 years.
But this is only theoretical, because the age has no influence on your character.

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Re: Lifespan of different races

#3 Post by Delia » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:21 am

I know it has no statistical influence but still it is something important world-wise. Just one question...if elves can live around 500 years, I was under the impression there was one elf that has lived a thousand years or so? Guess there are circumstances then.
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Re: Lifespan of different races

#4 Post by anglachel » Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:20 am

An elf over 500 years counts as very old. It is of cource possible to become older.
The record of (real) humans is at 122 years. So in Geas an elf should be able to reach 732 years.
On the other hand the statistical age distribution of the elves must be to same like the humans, so an age of 1000 years can be possible but would be very rare.
The agelimts (human/tshaharks 80 years, halfelf 120 years, halfling 160 years, dwarf 200 years, elf/darkelf 480 years) are limits of the average member of these races. Over this age they count as very old.
And the should not forget the magic exists in Geas, this can influence the ageing process. The (real) history is full of legends of wise men with an age of 200 years and more. For an elf in Geas this would mean 1200 years and more.

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Re: Lifespan of different races

#5 Post by Delia » Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:48 am

Ok, thanks!
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Re: Lifespan of different races

#6 Post by Zekiel » Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:05 pm

General tendencies in RL Biology point towards The Bigger the Beast, the Longer it Lives. It's correlated to the amount of heartbeats. Every organism, regardless of its size, lives a set amount of heartbeats (with major variation on the exact amount due to things like lifestyle, stress, randomness of life, etc. etc.). The general idea is that an elephant would live twice as long as a human if its heartrate was twice as slow. (Exception to this are birds, which have INSANE heartrates, but grow relatively old. Possible explanations for this phenomenon usually involve the higher levels of anti-oxidants in their blood.)

Going from this, and taking into account that I'm a Tshahark-fan (bigger is better, duh), I'd think they'd grow older than humans. Not a lot. But definetly older.

Dwarves, in 'common mythology', grow old, too. I don't know why, 'cause they drink like hell and can't have much of a liver left by the time their beard reaches their toes, but lets just accept that. (Must have magic involved, or at least a permanently lowered heartrate...)

Halflings... Well... Why do they grow that old? =o They're tiny! Their lifespans should be tiny, too. -nods wisely- Nothing against shorties... Nothing I'd ever let other people know about anyway... =P

And to conclude this silly rant, Elves. I always thought they could live forever. As in, literally. Forever. Immortal. At least, they can be killed alright, but won't die of old age. Or age significantly. Elves living hundreds and hundreds of years might (almost logically) look older than elves living 'only' 200, but it'd could only be ended by a sword up their throats, not common aging... At least, that's what I always thought. ^^

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Re: Lifespan of different races

#7 Post by luminier » Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:14 pm

I was under the impression that young elves looked much like children, but once they reached adulthood (around 100 or so) they would never change in appearance with respect to aging. same with darkelves.

Humans do as humans do.

Tshaharks should really live the shortest because they are created through odd means.

halflings should live as long as a hobbit from JRR tolkiens series imo.

dwarves yes, around 200-400 years makes sense since thats just how it's always been when I hear of dwarves.

and half-elves should be able to live a couple centuries perhaps a millenia(sp?)
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Re: Lifespan of different races

#8 Post by tessa » Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:01 pm

I imagine tshaharks live shorter than humans for a multitude of reasons:

1. They were made artifically, not naturally.
2. They probably have poor hygiene or living style, sort of like goblinoids.
3. They probably inflict a lot of battle wounds that could shorten their lifespan in the long run.

However, as far as potential lifespans go without variables, it seems humans and tshaharks are about the same.

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Re: Lifespan of different races

#9 Post by luminier » Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:01 am

What she said.
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Re: Lifespan of different races

#10 Post by Zekiel » Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:01 am

I just read the wiki. Genesis' bit on Tshahark's Creation says that they, indeed, are not created naturally. However, it also says something about going to sleep in the cold cellars of the castle the dwarves built as payment for killing the dragons. Hibernation or something similar.

I picked up over the Newbie channel earlier Tshaharks are more susceptible to cold. I can only imagine this is due to their poikilothermia (coldbloodedness) they must've magically inheritted from that saurian ancestor?

It does give IC options for letting Tshahark 'live' incredibly long. If they don't die in battle, that is. 'Sleeping' (hibernating without winter) in a cold environment for a few years/centuries, with a completely shut down metabolism... No serious aging effects should take place during such stasis.
tessa wrote:1. They were made artifically, not naturally.
2. They probably have poor hygiene or living style, sort of like goblinoids.
3. They probably inflict a lot of battle wounds that could shorten their lifespan in the long run.
I don't see how a life being created magically should be reason for it to be shorter. In fact, it could just as well be reason for it to last longer. I can't remember where I read it exactly, but there's a post on this forum mentionning potions or other magic that can influence aging. So I don't believe Artificial Creation is a reason for them to live shorter.

I think having poor hygiene or an unhealthy lifestyle depends on the individual Tshahark. Zekiel, for one, washes often and eats healthy stuff. (Berries and fish, for example) Until the Tshahark Castle is coded in and we can peak around, the playerbase doesn't know how hygienic they live. Guess we can only ask the creators about this or if they don't know either, decide upon something with the entire playerbase. (As you can probably tell by now, I'm a big Tshahark fan and would definetly vote them to be roughly as clean as humans/dwarves. Not elves though... They stink like soap.)

Thinking from a medieval setting, poor hygiene is all over the world, not just with Tshaharks, and hence shouldn't be a reason to have them live shorter than other races with equally deplorable hygeniec states. (Assuming Tshaharks are as clean as humans and dwarves, that is. Elves, I repeat, are too clean for the dark ages!)

Last, and probably the most lethal for defending the statement "Tshaharks should live longer", point #3. Tshaharks get a lot of battle, and with that a lot of wounds. In fact, Tshaharks were -made- for battle. Again, though, I'll try and compare them to other races. Do Tshaharks really fight more than they do? And, perhaps more importantly, do they suffer more wounds?

Being created for battle means Tshaharks are more ept at it than your average non-Tshahark (Mark Average. Not all non-Tshaharks suck at combat. ;P) Being better at something generally means messing up less often, and in this case that translates into suffering less wounds.

Say a Tshahark and a Dwarf both fight 100 fights in a year's time. (They're gladiators, duh.) After the year's over, we count the wounds each warrior has received. The Dwarf probably took more.

Tshaharks, though, are built for fighting. If you have a good gladiator, he fights more often so he can rake in more cash. Say he fights 150 battles where the Dwarf still has 100. More battles means more risk, which is compensated by his skill. 150 might not be the proper number, but there's a certain amount of battles (higher than 100) where STATISTICALLY the Tshahark and Dwarf suffer an equal amount of wounds.

How many battles a Tshahark fights, wether he's a gladiator or not, depends on his lifestyle, personality, pure randomness from time to time, and a great lot of other factors.

So to make a long story short, whilst I agree that suffering more wounds shortens your general lifespan, I don't believe you can just say Tshaharks probably suffer more wounds.

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Re: Lifespan of different races

#11 Post by Mathias » Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:19 pm

The lifespan of a tshahark is not shortened by damage to the body or hygene. Feed them boar regularly and take them to visit a cleric once in a while and you can keep them physically healthy. It is the mental health of the tshahark that often does it in. Tshaharks die when their brains become so full of useless and distracting notions (such as numbers and age) that they can no longer function properly and become so confused that they simply freeze up and die. So for the love the GODS! Stop teasing the tshaharks with your fancy counting tricks!

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Re: Lifespan of different races

#12 Post by Zekiel » Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:10 am

If this weren't OOC, Zekiel would've developped severe numberphobia right now.

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Re: Lifespan of different races

#13 Post by tessa » Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:53 pm

Zekiel wrote:I don't see how a life being created magically should be reason for it to be shorter. In fact, it could just as well be reason for it to last longer. I can't remember where I read it exactly, but there's a post on this forum mentionning potions or other magic that can influence aging. So I don't believe Artificial Creation is a reason for them to live shorter.
The life-spanning magic/potions (though I don't know of any confirmed sources) would be designed for that specific purpose. Tshaharks were designed only to battle insects in place of people, so they would be built for that purpose: smart enough to follow orders but too stupid to rise against their superiors, strong enough to combat insects and endure low living standards (I doubt tshaharks, being seen as beasts by many, were treated much better than riding mounts in the insect war days), and a short lifespan so they easily died off of once their purpose was served.

As for the hibernation, I think that had a magical nature of some sort. From what I know, it wasn't a pre-mediated feature, but rather a way for tshaharks to rest in peace, away from a world where they were no longer welcome (and it's quite possible wizards didn't think out the technical details of everything regarding this when the mud was being created).
I think having poor hygiene or an unhealthy lifestyle depends on the individual Tshahark. Zekiel, for one, washes often and eats healthy stuff. (Berries and fish, for example) Until the Tshahark Castle is coded in and we can peak around, the playerbase doesn't know how hygienic they live. Guess we can only ask the creators about this or if they don't know either, decide upon something with the entire playerbase. (As you can probably tell by now, I'm a big Tshahark fan and would definetly vote them to be roughly as clean as humans/dwarves. Not elves though... They stink like soap.)
I suggested that, because I don't think typical tshaharks have as much conscious thought about cleanliness as the more senient races. The other races have a degree of aesthetic taste, varying from elves and cleanliness/flowers or whatever to dwarves and masterfully crafted items or cut gems or such. Tshaharks are rugged creatures who care more about practical survival than comforting pleasures, which suggests they typically care as much about cleanliness as other rugged races (goblins and so). And I doubt they would care as much about sleeping in their own waste, for instance. For something like an elf, this would be uncivilized and repulsive, but a tshahark might think, "hey, it's warm and soft and keeps itchies away". While being dirty is considered 'primitive' and 'uncivilized' by some, those who care more about survival can often consider stench to be a good thing (skin covered in grime can protect against some elements, and stench lets one blend in with nature easier than one that smells like soap and lilacs).
Thinking from a medieval setting, poor hygiene is all over the world, not just with Tshaharks, and hence shouldn't be a reason to have them live shorter than other races with equally deplorable hygeniec states. (Assuming Tshaharks are as clean as humans and dwarves, that is. Elves, I repeat, are too clean for the dark ages!)
I would place tshaharks closer to goblinoids than humans as far as hygiene goes, honestly (dwarves being slightly below humans). And while general hygiene in the medieval world is poor, I think some rate worse than others.

But you do bring up a good point that medieval humans were rather awful with hygiene (I believe middle-aged europeans only bathed twice a year?), so perhaps it isn't as great a factor as I originally thought (from thinking of elves rather than humans).
Last, and probably the most lethal for defending the statement "Tshaharks should live longer", point #3. Tshaharks get a lot of battle, and with that a lot of wounds. In fact, Tshaharks were -made- for battle. Again, though, I'll try and compare them to other races. Do Tshaharks really fight more than they do? And, perhaps more importantly, do they suffer more wounds?
I'll just highlight this part rather than the whole thing. The reason I said this isn't because tshaharks are more built for fighting, but because tshaharks really have few paths in life except a warrior's life. With the exception of the occasional PC tshahark that goes against the grain, I think it'd be a safe assumption to say 99% of tshaharks are warriors. While other races do indeed have their own warriors (who would have the same lifespan factor applied to them), they have many more that pursue other careers (such as the drastically less health-endangering occupation of shoe-cobbling).

Of course, this could all be simplified by simply pointing out that tshaharks do indeed have the same lifespan as humans codewise, and the factor of many of them dying before their time due to a warrior life is a trivial matter to biological lifespan.

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Re: Lifespan of different races

#14 Post by Zekiel » Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:49 am

I agree with you on most parts, except for this one really.
Tessa wrote:The life-spanning magic/potions (though I don't know of any confirmed sources) would be designed for that specific purpose. Tshaharks were designed only to battle insects in place of people, so they would be built for that purpose: smart enough to follow orders but too stupid to rise against their superiors, strong enough to combat insects and endure low living standards (I doubt tshaharks, being seen as beasts by many, were treated much better than riding mounts in the insect war days), and a short lifespan so they easily died off of once their purpose was served.
Assuming Genesis' text on the wiki is 100% like it happened, the last lines in this piece aren't true I believe. It's in this bit of text.
Genesis wrote:The Tshahark Army grew and they were sent to hunt the Insects. Many were good, but it seemed that their intelligence was quickly droppping due to the saurian blood. Legion Commanders were ordered to command the Tshahark Army in order for it to be efficient. But yet, it took years for the Insect Hive to be located and destroyed, it was done 41 A.A. After this, the scattered groups of Insects were hunted and destroyed - at least that was believed.
Another interesting section:
Genesis wrote:A group of six in addition to the leader magician surrounded the corpse, chanting syllables that were not anything like heard before. The leader magician made strange gestures and a shimmering blue runes started appearing in front of him, floating in the air. Soon, the runes leaped at him, burning him to death. After that they leaped into the saurian corpse and it exploded. The magicians in the pentagrams wringed in pain!
From this, you can tell the wizards didn't really know what they were doing. Their intention was to create an army of lizardmen using saurian blood. I've boiled down the quoted section to four points I believe you say were held in mind when creating the Tshaharks.

I - Smart enough to follow orders, too stupid to rise against their superiors.
II - Strong enough to combat insects.
III - Capable of enduring low living standards. (Being seen as beasts equal to riding mounts)
IV - A short lifespan so they died fastly when they did their job.


Point I: The first piece of Genesis I quoted states it -seemed- as if they were less intelligent. This implies it came as a surprise, or at the very least wasn't expected. So I think it's safe to say Tshaharks weren't designed to be stupid - it was just a nasty, unpredicted side-effect of the saurian blood.

No argueing point II. The fact they were made of saurian blood was done solely for the raw strength it would give a warrior.

I'm not so sure about point III and IV, really. Another bit of Genesis' text.
Genesis wrote:Year 50 after the arrival: the Tshaharks had long been enduring the constant mockery of other races. This resulted in an order from the Dragonlords to stop the ritual that endured their lives. The magicians, one after another, stepped down from the pentagrams. The magical humming stopped. All was silent... But the Tshaharks continued to exist.
This pretty much puts point IV another way around. They had intended for the Tshaharks to be able to exist after the war had ended, for they upheld the ritual for many years. (Destruction of the hive, many years after the Tshaharks were made: 41 A.A.) They didn't want the Tshaharks to die when they'd done their bit.

This is somewhat imaginable. A price paid in human lives and sacrifice is one you try to keep as low as possible. The Dragonlords sacrificed their own soldiers to be turned into lizard warriors, and I can imagine they'd want to keep them alive. Unfortunately, these soldiers that had protected them from the insects, saved their lives, etc. etc. were mocked by the other races so they decided to pull the plug to ease their suffering and decrease interracial conflict.

I believe point III is just plain wrong, but I can't find any direct hints to this in the text. It's mostly based on speculation.

At the time of their creation, the Tshaharks were the salvation of mankind. The last hope they had for fighting off the insects. I certainly wouldn't consider my saviour to be a beast.

'help tshahark' says the following though.

... Generations after the war, mankind had forgotten the deeds of the tshahark and started to hunt them down wherever they had been seen. Nearly exterminated, but not yet beaten, the survivors fled into some mountains where they took an abandoned castle in possession. ...

There's a few discrepancies between the help file and Genesis' text, like how they got the castle, the timespan it all took place in, etc. etc., but this file clearly states it took generations for mankind to forget the deeds of the tshahark. The word 'forgotten' implies they did know of their deeds before, and in this sentence, forgetting about these deeds is implied to be a requirement for hunting them down.

In other words, remembering their deeds would've stopped the other races from hunting the tshahark. They were grateful, or maybe even felt in the tshahark's debt before forgetfulness kicked in.

The whole point I'm trying to make here is this.

DURING and JUST AFTER the war, Tshaharks, from my point of view, definetly wouldn't have been treated or thought of as animals. It was only LONG AFTER the war that people started thinking of Tshaharks the way you describe them in point III.


Gods, another one of those dreadfully long posts... Can we stop this and agree with eachother now, Tess? xD

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Re: Lifespan of different races

#15 Post by stilgar » Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:15 am

If you try to set up examples from the middle age, forget lifespawn of 80, count with average 35 for humans. (almost any serious injury ended up with certain death becouse of infections, coming from both lacking of higyene and poor knowledge about anatomy and health at all. Same about sicknesses, not to mention the effects of improper feeding, infected water sources... etc.)

As we have magic in GEAS, these considerations should be ignored, better if you try to figure out something artificial and commonly accepted thing than bring up examples form the middle-age Europe, IMO :wink:
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