Specials and fatigue

[amrat]

When thinking about a fight between a tshahark and a halfling I picture the tshahark using very simple, but powerful techniques while the halfling tries to use all his creativity and cunning to avoid getting hit and perhaps land a hit with something acrobatic once in a while between all the dodging.

I used to play a halfling combatant a long time ago. I never expected him to excel in fighting, but it quickly came clear to me that the most effective fighting style was not what I had expected either. Things like flickup or using somersaults to evade enemies' blows was not something he could afford, it's just wasted fatigue. As you quickly lose your ability to dodge anything when getting tired, these were reserved for the 300 kg lizards. The most effective strategy seemed to be to avoid using any specials in combat at all.

I now play a fighting elf with a decent con and it feels like I am back to playing that halfling again.

I really like the concept of having two separate fatigue levels, but as it is now the additional “stamina” feels like nothing more than an additional limit to how many specials you can perform (in combat, I think it works nicely for moving). I tend to hit that limit in simple fights very quickly unarmed and with some weapons “trivial” creatures have become a nuisance.

Yes, I know the new system is still being tuned. I think it is a good opportunity to fix some of these issues, being unable to even flee after a couple of acrobatic maneuvers is not how I would like to see things turn out. The long term fatigue could be used like it has been so far while also the lighter built races could recover the short-term fatigue in combat at a rate that does not keep them completely crippled forever if they foolishly perform a combat maneuver.

@Amrat

[tessa]

I helped test this system out for wizards, and one of the biggest things I had experience with was the combat fatigue. I would say Tessa and Amrat are probably roughly equal in combat and skill size, with Amrat actually possibly being larger (Tessa's not a 'fighting elf').

I'm not sure what you've been fighting against, but I spent this time having Tessa go against ogres unarmed (without wargloves) while practicing shao moves as fast as she could do them. I was able to complete each fight without worry as long as I rested between each one. If I tried two in a row, I could find myself in trouble. But considering the amount of effort it took to topple a single ogre, it made sense to me that she'd need a minute or two to catch her breath again.

I don't like how lack of stamina can 'trap' someone in a room for as long as it has for me (+1 minute) since that can almost be lethal in several scenarios, but I'm considering what could be done to resolve that (ie; being too exhausted to use combat moves before being too exhausted to move rooms, to let people retreat a few rooms for rest when they find themselves too exhausted to fight further (3-4 rooms are preferable, since some monsters can chase after players a little ways, and it's hard to avoid that without macro-running, which obviously doesn't work now)).

[isengoo]

I'm not certain of how it works currently, and I can't test it at levels that would satisfy me, so this might be redundant. But - it seems to me that all peoples should tire at the same rate when using the same skills (size of weapons being the only differing variable, I suppose) since the force required to move a smaller body (a halfling's) compared to a larger body (a tshahark's) would be the less, and thus there would be less energy exerted on a smaller constitution. Hence, the same rate of depletion of fatigue.

[luminier]

if stamina isn't already i think it should be more based on actual weight( a little elfie compared to a massive tshahark), how much your carrying (light armours, medium armours.... heavy armours.... how much is in the backpack basically the whole encumberance thing) , be more closely tied to con (so if you have a really high con you don't use a special or two and start breathing faster, especially when you have 100 in the special)

btw im pretty sure amrat is alot better tahn Tessa (sorry to burst ur bubble tess)

a couple things i LOVE about the system though, is the fact that u can't fight for an ig hour anymore. without getting damn tired. the fact that if you are wieldling and you move accidentally a couple rooms u aren't EXTREMELY exhausted, just completely out of breath (much easier to regen), and it adds a new element to pvp and pve.

[tessa]

btw im pretty sure amrat is alot better tahn Tessa (sorry to burst ur bubble tess)

I'm pretty sure of that too, though I was trying to be a bit diplomatic. But if Tessa is significantly less skilled and less physicially fit as Amrat and can get along with the current fatigue system just fine IMO, then I'd be tickled pink to be in Amrat's fitness condition.

[triska]

Triska is a halfling and not a strong one at that. Shes not big at combat which is why she cant explore a lot i ncase of nasties she may wander into and cannot deal with.

She does find it embarrassing though that she is so breathless after a few headbuts at a nibbler that shes fastened into the room and cannot go rest and he does seem to get the better of her quite a bit more than before.

Now one question I have about this is , does the nibbler get as breathless as her because if he does then thats fair but if he doesnt then its not fair. After all hes hacking and slashing at her too. Ok I dont know too much about nibblers using specials but...well just askin!

[Grindel]

During fights the new system affects Grindel only little, he is breathig heavily after a normal fight. Of course, his fights run slowly, as expected from a dwarf, and he uses specials that need much time anyway, not like these quick jumps or flickups.
I will not complain, dwarves fight slow enough already. It makes fighting for a dwarf more realistic as I think it would stop them from using a lot of quick moves.

Whether this is realistic for elves is a different question. If the aim of these new additions is to make the typical combat for every race harder, then it did not succeed. If the aim was to make using specials at high frequency harder, then it succeeded well.

[tessa]

I'm pretty sure other monsters get tired eventually, too. But you'll get tired faster than them if you use specials, since they (usually) don't.

If the aim of these new additions is to make the typical combat for every race harder, then it did not succeed. If the aim was to make using specials at high frequency harder, then it succeeded well.

Can't speak for Abhs, but I vote for the latter.

[Delia]

Just putting some figures into table discussed:

During testing it was more or less like this with D
Specials used: elbow + knee + whole range of MA, including spinmoves and the occasional flickup
All the test subjects were disposed in timely fashion without any rest periods in between.

1. Delaylimit 60

After five orcs:
Fatigue = Alert
Stamina = Out of Breath

2. With Delaylimit 100

After five orcs:
Fatigue = Alert
Stamina = Breathing heavily

After two more orcs and a troll
Fatigue = Somewhat alert
Stamina = Trouble breathing

This is the pattern that follows Delia even now more or less. Sure, you won't necessarily want to deal specials in rapid succession now but five to seven quick orcs isn't that bad when you think of it. And Delia isn't the hardiest elf out there either. This all of course is, speaking of all the light-fighters out there.

[isengoo]

If delaylimit has a big purpose now, then I fully support this change.

[Delia]

Yes, before it was quite commonsense to set your DL to '0' in any PvP situation as the situation usually was over in a heartbeat anyway, not that big hit to your fatigue(ok to mana with some chars). Now it can be quite a different story when you go wildly swinging around...

[Itenin]

So far with Itenin I haven't had a problem with the new system at all. In fact, if anything, it seems easier because the large stamina pool doesn't appear to be drawn from as much and I can restore fatigue from empty to full in a moments meditation. I've yet to really fight any extended battles, such as trolls, but small things like orcs, bugbears, and probably ogres aren't a problem. This using a delay-limit of 50.

And granted although Itenin has what I think is a relatively high exp level geared mostly towards combat stats (and a few other goodies to help with fatigue), a few deaths has really kept me from playing with him at full strength.

Speaking from a newbie's prospective my alt, who is also a lighter fighter, can barely get through two much smaller cycles of specials with 100 delaylimit, and naturally my alt's meditation takes a bit longer than Itenin's. In my opinion this isn't too bad, but I agree with Tessa in that there should be a way to keep someone from becoming so fatigued they can't flee from battle. I can see quite a few newbies possibly dying or becoming frustrated because of it.

[anglachel]

Halfings are not very tough and strong, so they are no great fighters. They have other advantages. Special their high agility is a big advantage.
Even im combat it can help to reduce the low strength and constituation.
Second the skills are very important, too. Not only the stats.

[sun]

I think the main point about stamina is that it should limit your ability to run quickly from room to room. It makes PvP fun again and adds some realism by not allowing sprinting across the continents in a split second.

But if we discuss how stamina affects combat. How I picture a stereotype fight between a heavy and lightly armoured warrior:

The lightly armoured guy keeps dancing around, jabbing at the heavy guy, trying to avoid getting hit. The heavily armoured guy doesn't really strike alot, but keeps mowing slowly forward waiting for a good time to hit. If the lightly armoured guy for example trips and falls, the fight should end quickly. If the lightly armoured guy for example gets around from the back on the heavily armoured guy out of his sight, he is in his dream position.

So, in my world, the light guy should be able to do a lot of jabbing and light kind of specials wirthout getting instantly drained. The heavy guy should probably focus on cornering the other guy and waiting for the time to strike, because he does not want to get off guard, and it also drains him alot.

It's kind of like boxing. The fly weight boxers are always tiny, moving quickly and the fights are very fast-paced. The punches are more like "aggressive touching". The heavy weight fighters pretty much stand around trying to find a "gap" and knock the other guy out in a single blow. Punching even just once makes him tired, but if he also hits, he can win in a single strike.

In other words, special stamina drains should be dependent on the type of special, use of armour and weight of the person who executes it. In such a world, an elf doing some quick jabs or high kicks should not drain a lot at all.

One question though is how not to leave all the tactical options to light armoured warriors only. If they are the only ones who get to use specials alot, fighting with a heavy guy is reduced to sitting and watching the hits scroll by. Sure there is knee, elbow etc which hurts more when armoured, but those would take a lot more to do in a heavy suit compered to shaolin armours. I'd like to see more of the tactical phase of trying to corner or pushing forward against a foe while blocking strikes, trying to find the right moment. Like a special to corner the enemy if you use a shield. It would drain only moderate stamina from the heavy guy like the jabbing specials does fromt he light guy. That special would of course be almost useless to a lightly armoured guy against a heavily armoured guy compared to the opposite since you would not have the ability to block blows or ignore angles which are well armoured, etc..

[Delmon]

One question though is how not to leave all the tactical options to light armoured warriors only. If they are the only ones who get to use specials alot, fighting with a heavy guy is reduced to sitting and watching the hits scroll by

Bah, who cares. Let them suffer their uber strength, constitution, and green lettering.

[Abharsair]

So, in my world, the light guy should be able to do a lot of jabbing and light kind of specials wirthout getting instantly drained. The heavy guy should probably focus on cornering the other guy and waiting for the time to strike, because he does not want to get off guard, and it also drains him alot.

You seem to forget that the "normal" combat already takes all of that into account. Lightly armored fighters defend better, strike more often, and hit more often. They also tire more slowly (fatigue), which in return means they have a larger stamina pool. Taking all of that into account I doubt it would make sense to give them yet another advantage by making stamina usage even more dependent on encumbrance.

[Delmon]

I see a situation in which a larger character holds off the barrage of angry specials...

Uhh oh...

The light fighter, whose advantage has always been running away, is now stuck, breathing to death.

Is this a valid situation that makes sense?

[Abharsair]

Is this a valid situation that makes sense?

If this were a valid situation, then no. Luckily you have the snazzy "hp" command, which tells you when it might be time to stop using specials in case you have to run away. It kind of works like with wounds: if you see you're about to die, you might want to reconsider your strategy.

[luminier]

Ha. Well said Abh.


EDIT: I don't know if this is a "special" per se.... but why is that when you hide and sneak you lose stamina as if you were running?

[Staltos]

It's kind of like boxing. The fly weight boxers are always tiny, moving quickly and the fights are very fast-paced. The punches are more like "aggressive touching". The heavy weight fighters pretty much stand around trying to find a "gap" and knock the other guy out in a single blow. Punching even just once makes him tired, but if he also hits, he can win in a single strike.

Have you ever boxed before? Cause I know from experience as the usually lighter boxer whenever I go to the gym that it is much more advantageous for me to make sure I'm blocking effectively and dodging rather than throwing a barrage of jabs at someone who outweighs me by 20 lbs. Continuously throwing punch, "aggressive touching" as you call it, is just asking for a one hit knockout. Also, I don't by any means get tired at a slower rate than someone who is heavier than me, so conserving energy is just as important for me as it is for the heavier opponent.