On Codices

[glorfindel]

Hiya,

Just've been reading Nathans talk on the 'codex' on the general OOC board and I think there's something I wanted to rise fundamentally about such Codices (Taniels have one, Asrals have one, Rangers have their Oath, druids have their Oath, Crusaders have their commandments, Shaolin have well... teachings by their masters , there's some sort of guideline for everybody). This post is about them.

Generally, GEAS is an immensely complex world with constantly changing environment. I've been online in this game during the course of the last 10 years (with long breaks in between) and I do have a certain perspective many people probably do not have. I saw how it was back then and how it is right now. Those codices do really add something and that is a general direction. They do guide players to have some basic value's on how they should be in this changing environment. Due to those changing environments, it'll not always apply and I have the impression it is not aimed to.

I see them much like the holy books of our earth religions are in former times. They are guidelines, ideals. There are things that'll break your neck if you do not do it, and things that'll only hurt a bit if you don't do it. For example, a taniel cleric who walks by an known enemy who has shown respect to the clergy might be in less trouble then one who teams with a sathonys cleric to fight another taniel cleric. It's something that must be find out how those codices are interpreted. The same goes for an asral cleric who skips a fight. He'll probably be in less trouble then the one who goes and slaughters dozens of very weak enemies. Your character is a mortal being, it's bond to be not ideal, it should strive towards it, but it should also should be bound by their own morale, being and surrounding. There might be a cleric of Sathonys who's brave enough to preach inmidest of a group of Crusaders, but there might be another who doesn't. Still both will not be punished for either of their deeds (apart of what the crusaders do in that case, of course ).

I'm not sure if my point is visible clearly, but I do think we should be treating the codices with respect but always our characters should think how they are interpreted correctly and when they can not be followed for reasons whatever.

An example is the treaties that are currently there (which are of course, strictly against the codex for example). They are needed right now or are seen to be needed, yet they do serve a greater purpose. In my eyes, this is in the range of the player to decide. If he or she does wrong with such decission, his or her peers, or their god, will surely have a word to say about it. Otherwise, they do follow their codex as guideline, not as written law.

Do you agree ?

[Delia]

I can only say that treating any codex as the sole truth as a player will undoubtedly lead to nothing but boredom. Any character will most likely have their own interpretations and mixed feelings they try to fit together with how they are told to think and act by their superiors.

While hardcore puritanism has its own fond place in GEAS, making it the largest and most visible part might not serve the game well. Shortly put, I'd see them as guidelines and gentle nudges towards a general direction - not as step by step manuals of how to play the game right.

[luminier]

I know the wizards put a lot of good time in the codices and introducing them into the game, and it's pretty cool the way the Tanielite codex was introduced especially, but I am not sure if I like them.

If the Crusaders got a codex to say teaming with Asrals was ok, Luminier still wouldn't team with Asrals because he just doesn't like them. Asrals don't fit his definition of "good" and thats the end of that for him.

What I mean by that is, I like having like a general guideline and people can kind of just go with that guideline and be free to RP what they want.

The Asralites codex (if i understand it right) basically says sit on your hands unless you are asked to balance a fight.

For a Crusader, this means that the person is just fighting to fight. Crusaders cannot team with people who aren't "good". Luminier's definition of good is someone who is generally standing for the light, willing to destroy evil given the chance and recognize that evil is "bad". This is why Luminier doesn't like Asralites too much usually (and will usually try to convert younger ones to fight with him).

Now the Tanielite codex is also interesting because it seems seems to tell you EXACTLY how to act. I am sure there is some room to RP and make your own decisions but much much less than before the codex was added. Some people even left the guild because they thought it was too different. I think thats strange...

Crusaders have always had the commandments (some might see them as fairly specfic) but they are fairly general sentences of how to act. Luminier sees "non-good" as anyone who doesn't fit his ideal of "good". A Crusader might see "don't get drunk for it clouds your judgement" as you can drink alcohol, but don't get drunk. Another Crusader might see it differently but there is room for some interpretations.

tl;dr I don't like codices. Why are players being told exactly how to act, seems boring.

[Delia]

I think codices in general are needed. All organizations have some rules. Religions more so. How they will work is the end result of player/character and godly reactions put together. As players we should try to be open-minded and not to bare our teeth the instant the wizzies make the game world more living via npc and divine interractions. The "I can do everything I want and no-one may intervene"-attitude I've noticed from time to time is not healthy, IMHO.

Asrals have it rough, btw. It really seems they are doomed to be an evil guild. More or less so in my eyes atleast. A shame really.

[fernao]

Asrals are a neutral guild, although on the evil end of neutral.
And the Codex specifies how they should act in general and especially during guild wars.
They are told a balanced fight is enjoyed most by Asral, hence they should assist the underpowered side in a war. And that they should behave honourably. There are also some specific provisions there.
Well, I once wrote books about the Asral codex for the libraries. The Arborea one got stolen/destroyed by a disgruntled former Asral follower. But I think both the scribes as well as the Elvandar library still hold such a book. Don't know what happened to the copy the Sathos were given though.

[Delia]

Well what I mean they can throw their neutrality out the window when they go and help the evil guy. Patting a kitten won't do much good afterwards if such behaviour becomes consistent. Karma, Gods, Reputation, intended neutrality and all such aside. What really matters in the end are perceived actions over time. If the said actions start containing helping Sathos or such too much the guild ends up in the Lilithian niche rather than the once proud defenders of Arborea. Unless the average Arborean is slightly evil as well where the gods are concerned. They seem rather nice and average on the outside though.

Just voicing a concern

[luminier]

Ya I mean it definitely seemed like I was upset with the change, I kind of am, but I don't want the wizards to change it back now. I liked how before it was open to interpret but the gods taking an actual interest in player interaction is kind of neat (luminier taking the insect stone for instance).

Asrals may be doomed to an evil guild but that doesn't mean there aren't people who can break the mold and only enter wars where they assist goodies. If I were to make my version of that Asral, they would probably just have to assist the goodies indirectly and avoid fights where they assisted evils (and probably trying to kill groups of evils on sight).

The fact that Asrals are expected with the new Codex to team with groups like the Sathonites is really strange to me. I know Arborea and the Asralites aren't really linked (although Asral's most recent actions lead me to believe otherwise) however it seems odd to me that someone who should be an enemy of Sathonys like Asral isn't actually an enemy of Sathonys. The reason I say that is because Asral adopted Sathonys humans that he created which infuriated Sathonys. Now they are expected to fight together on the field against people that are ALSO trying to destroy Sathonys? It sounds so weird. Look at the history. Why are we being led to believe this makes sense?

It may seem like I am quite upset with the change, but, really I just want to shed some light on the topic and perhaps be enlightened myself.

[glasp]

Why must you follow a holy book to 100%? Those are just the ideals of those groups. If the blade is by your throat probably any sensible person would break each one of them.

Relevant post:
viewtopic.php?p=5143#p5143

Those artifacts are there to set the background, not the foreground.

[Delia]

People easily see all guidelines set by wizards as unbreakable rules OOC as well. Atleast I think that is the case.

[glorfindel]

Hi,

I think you nailed the point Delia. People tend to see those codices like the unbreakable law of the wizards and either follow it 100% or not at all. I'd like to see some diversity there, with each character following it as much as their own mindset allows. Some might get into trouble for this, some might not, depending on how good they sell it, I guess.

[luminier]

This of course, Glorfindel, implies that the codices can be interpreted. In my view they cannot. They are not guidelines they are specific rules.

The Asralite codex says they cannot enter a war unless asked and even then they must decide whether or not it is glorious to them.

So basically since the goodies will likely never ask them (at least in my view the crusaders shouldn't be allowed to unless you are really bending the commandments, other 'good' guilds are different) they'll only help the evil side if they need help. otherwise they are doing nothing in pvp, sounds like a blasty blast.

[Yngwe]

Depends on what you mean by "interpretation".

In the strictest sense, interpretation is required for comprehension and especially application. Even in our understanding of what Asrals can and cannot do, or Crusaders or whoever - according to their codex - it must be read and interpreted into behavior change - which equals application.

Some people in the real world, even if you put a knife to their throat, would follow the words of their Scriptures right into death. Some people only follow their beliefs and "Codices" nominally... for convenience or tradition or when people they want to impress are looking or something. Hence, the "religious people are all hypocrites" mantra in modern societies around the world in various places where they can say it without getting their heads lopped off.

Codices ingame can and should be followed differently by different people unless they are part of a guild that regularly lops off heads for anything other than hardcore fanaticism. Even then you will have degrees of submission.
Human condition and all that wonderfulness.