Balance issues - PVP

[adanath]

Adanath does two main things

Decreases the boar population vastly
hehe, yeah when I am up to speed I hope to be a bit of a boon to the good side. TBH I have made a lot of dumb mistakes this past week, hopefully this changes. (I get a bit more adapted)

[Nathan]

poRex and I also tested the trap miracle, a day or two ago, not sure about you guys. [...] I'm assuming based on the clerics skill/experience will affect how powerful it is. We were testing it out with a very weak cleric and it was shitty in my opinion. [...]

So we are talking about - roughly spoken - assumptions that cause such a "drama" about the trap miracle, yes?

- No on the point about being able to cast while moving, that's just ridiculous to me.

Just out of curiosity, why?

And no on the delay/preparation of using specials.

Why?

- I agree on the fact that it sucks how the clerics now have their own version of thief spikes. Guild or not, their uniqueness has been taken away.

Again, why?

[Nathan]

Maybe I shoud add that I am personally not very interested in casting while moving - it's just, I have the feeling that each side desperately tries to hide and protect their advantages. That might be useful in short term, but if we all desire an even better PvP experience in long term, an open discussion amongst - well - partners would maybe be better, no?

[isengoo]

From my experience, PvP is basically like this:

I sit in a room and keep all my protection miracles on, a hfire ready to release, shield on, mood defend, protect head and wait. I keep looking at the other room to make sure the other guy is still there and I keep waiting. Soon I have to recast hfire and keep it ready. Then I have to recast all my other miracles. Then my hfire runs out and I must recast it again. All this time I'm losing favour to just sitting around and waiting. If the enemy does come in and attack they usually rush in, gore/hack at head to hope for a crit (why I keep mood defend, shield on, protect head), and leave before I can even release my hfire by using macros and aliases.

It is extremely boring. It's why I don't even bother with PvP anymore. At least trolls don't run around, they just beat me senseless with their hands and feet

[Nathan]

LOL, totally agreed

[delem]

poRex and I also tested the trap miracle, a day or two ago, not sure about you guys. [...] I'm assuming based on the clerics skill/experience will affect how powerful it is. We were testing it out with a very weak cleric and it was shitty in my opinion. [...]

So we are talking about - roughly spoken - assumptions that cause such a "drama" about the trap miracle, yes?

- No on the point about being able to cast while moving, that's just ridiculous to me.

Just out of curiosity, why?

And no on the delay/preparation of using specials.

Why?

- I agree on the fact that it sucks how the clerics now have their own version of thief spikes. Guild or not, their uniqueness has been taken away.

Again, why?

Its all been said by other players, I didn't want to make it any longer than it should be sorry, I probably should have stated that. But yeah, I don't even play a good character right now, I'm just neutral c:

[Allurana]

From the sound of some new posts, it seems like the issue that inspired "trap" isn't necessarily the shortcomings of the cleric system itself, but rather the fighting tactics of a small but prominent group of players.

I believe the mount help-file says the mount system is actually still in beta. Maybe it's time to give it a second look-over?

[mazarmormuk]

i agree here, mounts or unicorns generally running through each block opens more than just one problem and the arms race going on with a trap miracle shouldnt be the solution.

Still the hit-and-run tactic is something that leaves clerics helpless in open field, especially because the hit got a chance to make a significant crit, the miracle not.

nevertheless i dislike the trap miracle for all clerics, i dont see it fitting for sathos for example (having the ability to trap someone in a room with undeads plus cleric is definately too much imo).

I would rather like to see different abilities in different clergies. and there are several options to deal with a hit-and-run tactic (a miracle with a chance to crit, for example--a preparation making you an equal weapon fighter--a short time flee prevention--a strong desease over a long time--a random block of undeads--...)

If i think of it, several of these things already exist..maybe they just just be adjusted, like a pain miracle that is rather useless but could be adjusted to tiring people out real quick when moving far.

[mazarmormuk]

Have to add that all these advantages/disadvantages will not solve a balance issue, there is always one stronger side, and this stronger side always gets stronger and stronger, until the other side stops playing.

I find it extremely disappointing that the solution of a neutral group that is able to support and fill in the missing power is not accepted on the goodies side, be it by code, codex or chars.

the solution about the "balance issue" i think is not to ignore a general disadvantage of clerics just because the currently stronger side gets more out of it.

[luminier]

The choice to not ask Asralites for help for Luminier isn't me as a player being like "SCREW THAT IM NOT ASKING FOR HELP", it is just roleplay. Luminier doesn't like Asralites, doesn't trust them, has fought in many wars against them. Why is he expected to come grovelling to them? He is a proud man who would never break down like that.

Ill reiterate that the "easy" thing to do IC isn't always the "right" way to do things. At least that's my opinion.

Just felt I needed to respond since you brought it up, but, lets get back to PVP balance.

From the sound of some new posts, it seems like the issue that inspired "trap" isn't necessarily the shortcomings of the cleric system itself, but rather the fighting tactics of a small but prominent group of players.

I believe the mount help-file says the mount system is actually still in beta. Maybe it's time to give it a second look-over?

Also, this. Honestly it feels like someone complained that my tactics were unfair so everything that I used is being countered.

I used the gate guards to heal, they no longer heal me.
I used mounts to escape from being blocked, now mounts can be blocked.
I used hit and run to avoid miracles, now there is a miracle that traps me.

I feel like I am getting singled out and it's really not cool.

Especially when I couldve easily died and my mount (that is a big gold and time investment) couldve easily died because I was never informed about the code changes until they were already live.

Perhaps we could be more considerate of the players?

[Drake]

Ok, ignoring all the extraneous matters and mutual chest beating, I'll concentrate my post on the specific of the new miracle, and its supposed reasoning for its existence.

Having extensively played clerical and combat related characters, I've seen both sides of the turtle caster, and hit and run cleric buster.

Neither are ideal so to speak.

To be a cleric means to use miracles, its what it is supposed to be all about, so ideally, I, as a cleric liked to use fighting ability to hold of an opponent to deal with them with clerical abilities, the stronger the opponent, the less you relied on fighting in favor of just surviving long enough to use your miracles.

On the other side of the coin as a cleric busting fighter, you have to come up with your own tactics to take out a cleric. Given the appropriateness of the power of a clerics miracles, a straight fighter shouldn't be able to stand one on one with an equally skilled fighting cleric. So your tactics, should, and will evolve into miracle evading tactics. With a highly skilled cleric being reasonably infallible with casting and hitting, avoiding becomes the necessary tactic, which pretty much means running since neutralizing, or minimizing items/abilities/miracles aren't all that easy to come by.

In my mind, both scenarios will piss off both parties in similar if opposing ways. This is good, no one group should ever have it their own way. We as Wizards have failed utterly if that's the case.

In my mind, neither of these advantages, or tactics should be completely invalidated, without a balancing measure put in place to retain the status qou of the situation.

So, clerics need a way to hold a fighter long enough to get a miracle on them. And fighters need a way to avoid or negate the miracle at the same time.

So if clerics can hold someone in place for a miracle to land on them, all well and good. But it should not be permanent, not long lasting, and not infallible. If the new miracle needs to be tweaked, it will be tweaked when appropriate, helpful and rational feedback is given.

And that goes for tweaking both the new miracle, as well as tweaking, or adding appropriate balancing measures to counter any new advantage, if it is believed to be one.

Brow beating and moaning will not assist in that process.

We are human, we can't foresee every use or misuse of the things we code. We can only try to deal with what happens, when it happens, with some useful insight and feedback from our players.

[luminier]

This is all well and good Drake, but why didn't we do this to begin with? And by "this" I mean why didn't we talk it out as a group? Why was this miracle just thrust upon us without warning?

I wouldve gladly spoken to the wizards about complaining because of my tactics but instead we have this cloak and dagger crap behind everyones back (or at least so it seems).

For now, why don't we remove the trap miracle from the game and discuss what might be better for everyone in terms of a balanced PVP situation. Is this reasonable?

[Drake]

This is all well and good Drake, but why didn't we do this to begin with? And by "this" I mean why didn't we talk it out as a group? Why was this miracle just thrust upon us without warning?

I wouldve gladly spoken to the wizards about complaining because of my tactics but instead we have this cloak and dagger crap behind everyones back (or at least so it seems).

For now, why don't we remove the trap miracle from the game and discuss what might be better for everyone in terms of a balanced PVP situation. Is this reasonable?

I just pointed out the rationality and validity of hit and run tactics against clerical opponents. I even hinted at the fact that my non-clerical characters have employed just that tactic themselves.

I also pointed out that a cleric should be given the chance to be a cleric, and actually get to use their clerical abilities in a one on one open fight.

If the addition requires balancing or refinement, then I am sure, like every other time new additions have entered the game, balancing will take place, if required.

That process is aided by suggestions and comments from the playerbase of the mud.

It is not aided by many of the comments, and attitudes displayed in this thread. By both sides of the coin I will distinctly and clearly point out so that you don't think I am referring to just yourself.

If others have suggested the tactic is invalid, abusive or unfair, then I am afraid I must disagree entirely with them. The tactic was even detailed to me by Abharsair once as a suitable and intended tactic against a clerical opponent.

[shiad]

Thanks for your side of the story drake, It's good to know you are keeping in mind that hit and run is a valid tactic! and that this trap miracle should not completely eliminate it as useful.

[rex]

I did some testing today with Bone Spear and found that it 'trapped' me in a room for 8 seconds (it was successful 2 of 5 times in trapping me). This seems like a fair duration in my opinion. Any longer would be overkill, any less would have no effect. Now if a Sathonite were to swing their weapon at me in the 8 seconds they have to fight me before I hit and run they have a chance of landing a decent hit on me which would leave me nearly dead. They could then persue me while I aid myself and perhaps kill me.

I'm sure Sathonites will say but your on mounts! Well then you have a strategy problem. Perhaps your targetting the wrong target!

I do think trap should be incorporated into a taniel/asral miracle as well. But I am not a fan of a miracle that is specific to trap, but something that incorporates it like Bonespear/Pain.

On another note, Curse needs to be changed. It should not be able to be stacked. Just like taniel blesses can not be stacked. It is only fair.

[Zehren]

I do not feel that clerical miracles - which consist of, not casting, but praying, should be made possible to walk around with while praying.

The reason is simple - praying for a miracle is a very ritualistic thing. Most rituals do not take place while running after people

[Delia]

Removing the trap as Lumi suggested would be silly as it has not even had the chance to affect things yet. Have faith and trust the good people offering you your daily Geas experience

As it has been put many times the miracle CAN be twisted and tweaked to whatever form is ultimately best. For example it could target mounts better than people.on foot if mounted tactics are the problem and so forth. I have absolute no suspicisions at all that it is intended as the ULTIMATE MULTIKILL FU I WIN YOU LOSE BOOYA miracle that some people are building it to be.

Take note that the thief spikes are not the end of everything either. The further you go up the high end of characters they begin to lose effectiveness. Also depending on your character they might really dangerous or not. I trust the trap miracle will ref

he trap miracle willreflect

[Delia]

...will reflect these things...writing with my phone which does not appreciate long post on this forum.

[adanath]

The only miracle that would be the FU end of all things is a kill all boars miracle.

Some things to consider for balance:

A feeding miracle that feeds adanath fully
A Dragon Mount for Adanath
strength 4x higher for Adanath
Perfect skills in all things
Smite for Adanath
Cure for Adanath

I just try to look at things from all angles and not just things to improve my char. Obviously.

I forgot the Axe of Taniel which obviously cuts everything in half it touches.

I feel bad because the trap miracle talk started with me I guess..but I have tried to make it clear my position on it! I don't think it is some kind of end all. I have no idea yet. I attacked Phelan and a giant Ghoul! What kind of stupidity is that. It's not stupid actually because the things above need to be incorporated.

All this talk of mounts make me cry. Who would have known all those boars when little would make me too fat..who could forsee that! WHO WHO! WHO!!!!!!!!

Seriously though, well I was serious, but the wizards here continually strive for balance. They just need good feedback Like mine above, with the needed changes listed in this post.

Don't even consider it, it should merit no consideration, just implementation.

[luminier]

Removing the trap as Lumi suggested would be silly as it has not even had the chance to affect things yet. Have faith and trust the good people offering you your daily Geas experience

As it has been put many times the miracle CAN be twisted and tweaked to whatever form is ultimately best. For example it could target mounts better than people.on foot if mounted tactics are the problem and so forth. I have absolute no suspicisions at all that it is intended as the ULTIMATE MULTIKILL FU I WIN YOU LOSE BOOYA miracle that some people are building it to be.

But guilds already have miracles that aid in slowing the escape of others that with "trap" enabled are now pretty much completely useless.

For Sathos - Pain and bonespear and meant to slow down and stick characters in the room in addition to causing damage. Trap is better at keeping people in the room than both of these.

For Asrals - Pain and shockbolt are meants to slow things down and paralyse characters. Trap is better and more reliable than either.

For Taniels - Air strike is used to keep foes down on the ground and can prevent them escaping easily. Trap knocks you down if you try to escape and will automatically block all the exits for you. Seems better than air strike.

For Thiefs - caltrops are enough to kill anyone if they try to escape at all. Everyone you try to run and fail you take damage. It was enough to outright kill a unicorn of mine once. However, this enables no one to leave the room easily until combat is over. Trap is dispelled as soon as the caster leaves the area and the caster gets no penalty.

Sounds like it needs to be reworked a lot. So for now, take it out.