Mages as adversaries

[Delia]

It might be good to ponder as a group before things escalate on the magic front as to what might actually happen and how would things be affected. Also just discussing related things on a general level.

I see it that should logic run its course, mages would enter the Satho niche of things. At the very least quite unable to uphold a decent reputation. This would bar some services, such as custom items from the mages. Depending on how things turn out, even access to cities could be greatly compromised.

This prompted the question...what are the mages to do if they become this abhorred? What magelike things there are asides doing research?(sitting still and pressing enter, basically)As mages are almost as non-combative as the druids(in theory)they do not go hunting and any PvP will promptly end with the player of a fighter typing 'swat mage on wall', the fundom of PvP is also quite out of the picture and very few mages want to run after people anyways, so

Once again I am not complaining about any of this, just throwing in observations and hopefully reading about interesting and insightful views you people might have.

[fernao]

Being no mage but a sathonite, I would see the following "end-game" scenario ahead.

- mages are barred from entering cities, depending on local law
- mages are still welcomed in the skalds, alchemists and scribe guilds, meaning ultimately those might have to move to neutral grounds outside the city just like the alchemists
- mages get hunted by the religious motivated guilds, meaning the clergies and the crusaders, but not by the rangers, rogues or shao-lin
- mages form their own city on their island where they control access, similar to Asador
- access to produce of crafts guilds or custom items can be arranged by proxies, but no longer directly

[louis]

Oh, I personally would not see things that worse, the only thing I mean that should be given is some _natural_ distrust, even a bit more disrespect by clerics maybe, but of course you should be able to work against that - so, if a mage desires to be well reputated in a town, he would have (like darkelves maybe too) to put much more effort into his reputation than a simple farmer maybe.

But never forget, mages have also a lot to offer, so, it maybe depends what players in the end make out of it, spoken in reputation terms - I personally just would not like to see them as "overheroes" or such, no, they are dangerous persons that can summon very dangerous things, and some good things sometimes maybe too.

Means:
- using magic in and around towns and populated places should of course make your rep drop
- doing nothing for your rep at all will cause your rep to drop too

So, maybe mages - and also alchemists and scribes using magic - will simply have to do much more for their rep, or?

[adanath]

I see distrust as well, but I don't see all out hatred. For adanath he never trusted the magiks not from the gods, but he understands with his simple mind it has done great things (him) and does still do great things that help the gods. He is more concerned about evil magicians such as the Lich, should a magician turn into something like that and even had a detailed discussion with a mage about keeping magiks from evils.

[Skragna]

To Skragna, magic is just a tool, like an axe or armor. It's not inherently good or evil, it's up to the person using it. So he views magi like Delia with great joy, and would likely make life unpleasant for a mage who used their magic to hurt the people he is sworn to protect.

[isengoo]

Isen's rule of thumb is - if it doesn't at least wear chainmail something is wrong with it

[krelji]

Oh, I personally would not see things that worse, the only thing I mean that should be given is some _natural_ distrust, even a bit more disrespect by clerics maybe, but of course you should be able to work against that - so, if a mage desires to be well reputated in a town, he would have (like darkelves maybe too) to put much more effort into his reputation than a simple farmer maybe.

I certainly won't have an issue with some natural distrust, but except for miracles from clerics, it should include all things magical. If I drink a heal disease potion after being infected by the plaque, and be cured of it, then it's just as scary for the average NPC as if I was casting a spell. Sure the NPC would see me drinking a potion, but if the NPC is drinking some liquid he won't suddenly get cured of some disease, and those potions in the shops are fairly expensive for the average NPC.If a tell ring crumbles to dust out of nowhere, then the average NPC won't have an explanation for it either.

But never forget, mages have also a lot to offer, so, it maybe depends what players in the end make out of it, spoken in reputation terms - I personally just would not like to see them as "overheroes" or such, no, they are dangerous persons that can summon very dangerous things, and some good things sometimes maybe too.

I've never imagined my char to be some kind of 'hero'. He's interested in working on his projects, but that's it.

Means:
- using magic in and around towns and populated places should of course make your rep drop
- doing nothing for your rep at all will cause your rep to drop too

It would be certainly fun to see someone needing the help from a Mage, and getting a response like: 'I'd love to help you, but considering that this would ruin my reputation around here. Sorry, but you'll have to find help elsewhere.' I don't like the current rep system too much, and this is a possible and likely scenario. I might even go as far as asking Turian to remove certain spells from our repertoire. There's no point in having spells that could be useful for the general population, but would result in the reputation of the Mage using it being ruined.

[Nathan]

[..]If I drink a heal disease potion after being infected by the plaque, and be cured of it, then it's just as scary for the average NPC as if I was casting a spell.[..]

Hmm, I totally agree that getting caught _brewing_ potions should result in the same consequence (repdrop), but drinking them I mean not. People tend to be rather opportunistic at times, "like burn the damn witch, but please after she cured me!"

[..]'I'd love to help you, but considering that this would ruin my reputation around here. Sorry, but you'll have to find help elsewhere.' [..]

Maybe thats simply the price magic has - some will decide to help in your example, others maybe will not - and then, they are maybe seen like they should be seen.

[Delia]

There's no point in having spells that could be useful for the general population, but would result in the reputation of the Mage using it being ruined.

I am not sure what spells you mean by this. I went through the spells only to discover enlightened self-interest Most spells can be, however, used to benefit others a great deal if the mage so chooses.

When someone asks a mage for magical help he/she might not probably know what is really asked for and as the mage delivers the realization slowly dawns upon the one who asked. End result being you might end with something more or slightly different that you first had in mind, hence the reputation drop even if the mage indeed was helpful.

- Good master weather mage, sir. Please! Save my crops from drought, we are starving. Please, do anything you can. Take this, it is everything I have!
- Hmm...well I indeed might be of assistance my poor man. Stand aside and let a wizard show you his skill.

Few moments of mumbo-jumbo later a gentle rain does appear and the farmer is very pleased, pays the mage and the mage leaves. The rain does not end however and continues to grow into a raging storm devastating the farmstead and ending the livelihood of the family. The mage is nowhere to be found but the tale endures.

[krelji]

Hmm, I totally agree that getting caught _brewing_ potions should result in the same consequence (repdrop), but drinking them I mean not. People tend to be rather opportunistic at times, "like burn the damn witch, but please after she cured me!"

Ohh, they might not mind getting cured if they drank a potion themselves, but if someone else is drinking one then it is an entirely different situation.

Maybe thats simply the price magic has - some will decide to help in your example, others maybe will not - and then, they are maybe seen like they should be seen.

I don't think that magic should be a lose-lose scenario. If I am going to lose either case, then I'd save some time at least if I did nothing. I certainly got better things to do - and my char is not different here - than waste my time playing yo-yo with my reputation.

I am not sure what spells you mean by this. I went through the spells only to discover enlightened self-interest Most spells can be, however, used to benefit others a great deal if the mage so chooses.

There was a single one that popped up immediately, and enlightened self-interest wasn't what prompted the research.

[Delia]

and enlightened self-interest wasn't what prompted the research.

Misguided feelings of one mage do not speak for the whole group

[anglachel]

First Geas is world there magic exist! The people know magic in serverval forms. The miracles of the clerics, the potions of the alchemist and so on. Everyone (player and npc) had contact with magic in many forms during his life.
So it is nothing unusal or evil by defintion, like in the medival times. That is a the big difference!
The clerics may distrust the mages, because they claim the monopol for mighty magic for their deities.
But for normal people a mage is a first a respected person. May be a bit feared, because of his powers. But all powerful persons are always feared in spite of the source of their power. Magic or a big sword.
But an other point is black magic. In this case the mob with the buring torches will be very near.
This my sight on this theme.

[Delia]

Even so, knowing what is black magic and what is not is difficult to say the least. Actually seeing a mage tinker with a corpse and making it move would be cut and dry but many effects are rather abstract. Also a priest might judge things from a "this is holy, that is not" viewpoint but a commoner might judge depending on how much negative impact it has on his daily life. An Asral might approve of conjuring flames(or accuse the mage of stealing from Asral), whereas a Taniel might see the flames as from Lilith. The more we move further from our modern game-mechanic influenced OOC viewpoint the more mixed up and interesting it becomes.

Making the distinction is not that easy even if the effect is beneficial(cont...protecting from undead). Just sayin'

I am not interested in making everything a lose-lose situation for the mages however. Setting up working themes that everyone plays by and having some gently enforcing mechanics would be swell

[anglachel]

I would say threre three kinds of magic: white, gray and black.
Alle heal spells are white magic. In my oppion all spells that harm person in a cruel way are black magic, like spread diseases or let limbs rot.
Black magic are all that creates or summmons undeads and demons.
The spells that let rot organic material (not livings) are at the border
between (dark)gray and black. Some will see it as black other as gray.
The normal combat spell like firelance or fireball are gray magic.
The most spells count as gray magic in this definition.

[Delmon]

This prompted the question...what are the mages to do if they become this abhorred? What magelike things there are asides doing research?

What non-combat miracles can you use? Players like myself only know of some spells and from what Ive seen mostly they are pvp oriented. What do mages offer to the game?

[Delia]

There are quite a lot of spells, really and yes there are spells for dealing damage and mages are better suited for PvP than for grinding monsters as one encounter can leave them exhausted. That does not imply mages are very well suited for PvP however.

So far what mages can really excel in is information, IMO. Personally I see them as a group that is approached for some service or the other as a mage with the spell you need is a friend indeed.

Everything is still at the beginning. That should be kept in mind.

[Aslak]

My Char seens magic not a bad, evil, good or light but simply as something dangerous.
It tries so do things the gods do, like making light or flames out of nothing, but also giving live to an entire new race. But for magic there is no controlling organ like the gods for their clergy who could simply deny a cleric the miracle if he intends to misuse it.

So in the end he has a sound mistrust against higher magic, but does not hate mages or calls them evil. He just cannot see with a mage what he is to do with his powers. A Satho priest you know what to expect from, a mage is missing that sign on his forehead.

So, we need a branding iron for good and not so good mages

[Cuetlachtli]

@Delmon

As Delia said, there are quite a lot of different things that Mages can do. Many of them, if not directly combat related, are at least somewhat beneficial to it. There are also several that could conceivably be seen as something useful the mage could do to provide a sort of service.

A lot of the problem is simply not knowing what they are capable of, not knowing that you can even ask them for help with a problem...and maybe even not realizing that you do have a problem they could solve. This is because, naturally, Mages aren't going to just list off and blabber too much about all their abilities. But I think it's not too far fetched to say that they do or can offer things to people or cities.

Also I agree with Delia about them being useful for various information or as advisers.

To add to an earlier point, I don't think there is much risk of very many mages being even normal heroes, much less overheroes. Maybe this will change in the future, but Arcane Study and Research seems to, IGly (and maybe even OOCly, I dunno!), draw people in and consume them to the point that they are more focused on their work and their interests than in anything else going on around them. Perhaps to a fault. Sounds pretty typically Mage-y anyway.

[Eluriel]

So, we need a branding iron for good and not so good mages

I'm curious what the Mages would do to a Mage who "misuses" their power.

[Cuetlachtli]

Castration.