Speed and combat

[stilgar]

I guess this is already an old idea from me, and since I'm in love with elves let me mention a thing about GEAS's combat system first of all: IT IS SIMPLY GREAT!!

Yet.. when it comes to balance... yes, yes, I know I know.. Still, let me tell my experience.

I know skills count most in the combat system, yet I feel like agility is a factor greatly underestimated. In its help file it says agility affects how well can one dodge in combat. In my experience.. it does not really affects. An elven character with epic, or even immortal agility gets hit by opponents just as easily as a dwarf with like swift or just agile speed.

In my experience speed is not a major factor in calculating the number of attacks either (specials does not count in these terms) as I did not experienced that the base number of attack would have been increased by speed. I mean I did not experienced my character with epic agility as an elf would have twice the number of attacks as an agile dwarf. This means they CANNOT deal damage faster either.

Dwarves are smaller and stockier thus their armour protection rate is better, have higher con so soak more and can take hits much better than elves. That is fair. Also fair.. as dwarves are stronger they can carry more armours (more protection) than elves.

Yes, there is a skill called 'deflect' for lightly armoured ones, but I do not really know how much does that effect things (IMO only soaks a little damage)

This means: Elves can be hit relatively easier (as speed is not a serious factor when calculating defence in the terms of the current info files) can take a lot less damage and also bleed easier. Also.. they CANNOT deal damage faster.. so why to improve agility at all?

currently the answer is: No idea (well, I like the info saying you are halfway to epic or immortal or ultimate agility, but sadly that is all)

IMO speed should be given a bigger role. Hopefully both in defence and attack though at least either one of them

[anglachel]

This is the the old story stats vs. skills.
Yes, it a very complex theme and it neary impossible to solve.
If the importance of the stats is increased, some ask: why should
i learn a skill to 100? Ony high stats are needed!
If the importance of skills is increased, some ask: why should i
take care of my stats, only a high skill is needed!
You see the problem?
Over the balance between the importance of skills and stats was a
long discussions in the past and there will be some in the future.
We can turn the balance in one or other direction, but i doubt that
we ever find a ideal point, there are all player will be contented.
But let see how this chapter of the story ends. May be one posts
the idea how to cut this 'Gordian Knot'

[tessa]

While I agree it sucks that elves tend to get kicked around a lot in fights, let me point out that elves aren't meant for fighting, whereas dwarves are, so it's not unexpected to see a dwarf win an elf/dwarf brawl.

[Abharsair]

While I agree it sucks that elves tend to get kicked around a lot in fights, let me point out that elves aren't meant for fighting, whereas dwarves are, so it's not unexpected to see a dwarf win an elf/dwarf brawl.

Not to mention that we had plenty of dwarves complaining that they hit nothing, wheras the longears hit their enemies all the time, and thus elves are overpowered and dwarves suck. Personally I keep it with the old saying "If both sides complain, it must be balanced." I actually would start to worry if no one complains.

[tessa]

I honestly think they're good as is. If I want a tank char. I'll go make something other than an elf or halfling.

[tarlon]

I think you would beat me in an unarmed fight without armours. even though i have similar unarmed skills as you(not the shao specials for sure). And i saw you attack at least 2 perhaps even 3 times
as we both attacked unarmed on a wolf in the time i attacked one time. Kay you won´t hit very hard and thats the problem because most player wear armours. And shaos expect tshaharks shaos have serious problems against heavy armouroured guys. I think you deal damage much faster against an ogre than me they are unarmoured.
and i noticed it very often that if team with an elf or someone with light weapons(rapier and stuff like that). They make ogres bleed like hell and deal damage extremly fast. Elves have only one little problem they can´t tank, because they get critted. Thats their problem. Their low
con means they get critted alot. and enemies like strong dwarves strong tshaharks or strong humans, for sure strong monster of anykind won´t have a real problem to succeed in a critical hit against an elf you don´t need to hit often to succeed a critical just hard. You probably hit quite some more times but you don´t suceed to deal alot of damage due to armours and no crits because your enemies have a good con.
Criticals are very important for a dwarf or tshahark warrior. Most of my playerfights (and i had quite alot in the past) that i won, I managed to win due to a crit with my fauchard. Not due to the damage my other hits dealed
Even though that helps alot.
Olaf po Tarlon

[stilgar]

I know, and mainly accept all, that was stated above, excluding the idea of certain races were designed for certain purposes. I that were true, I'd greatly doubt elves could survive at all

Let me get to my point from somewhere else:

Let's pick dwarves as slowest of all playable races. Call their attack rate 1. Let'ssay tshaharks are a bit faster call them 1,5. Call human 2 Elves and halfling 3. This scale could go for mobs too. What I meant is from now on.

Lets say a mob has 4 attacks a turn. He has the same speed as a dwarf. encoutering an elf or halfling. This means the elf has 3 turn while the mob has one. 4 attacks for him 3 to the elf. Got my point?
Of course weaponry, personal speed factor (like agility increase) can (like heavy armour, heavy weaponry can decrease) affect this base attack rate and maybe things are not exactly should have the same numbers, but I think this should work somehow like that. And yes.. this could mean a VERY fast shao with 0 delay could attack like hell, yet armoured troops could laugh at him. Also.. an early crit could stop it the same way as it stops him now, yet they'd have a chance either to flee or to deal some more damage, cast, or do whatever they'd like to.

This is only one way to see things...

And of course, balance can be treated in many ways.. lets increase the manacost and decrease the fatigue cost of specials and magic

Well, the original idea was behind the note is to create a little discuss, and see and hear all those opinions wizards and players might have about how things go now.

[tessa]

I know, and mainly accept all, that was stated above, excluding the idea of certain races were designed for certain purposes. I that were true, I'd greatly doubt elves could survive at all

Never said they were designed for certain things.. I just said elves weren't created to have an advantage in fighting. They can fight, yes.. but not as well as others, just the same as a tshahark could be a cleric, but wouldn't be as good at it as an elf.

[chara]

The idea that stats have a direct influence on attacks is one that I've seen implemented in some muds, and it can be kind of interesting. However, just because stats don't have the same direct influence in Geas doesn't mean that it isn't extremely important to have a high stat. They have a huge impact on skills as well as on an number of other things, making them very useful. So I don't really feel that the number of combat attacks/defends needs to be changed to make stats important.

[stilgar]

Maybe not gained stats, but if we accept racial bonuses and differences, with the same logic a different attack rates could be included (call it a number of attacks/turn in some other ways)

It works for mobs as I see

[Abharsair]

Maybe not gained stats, but if we accept racial bonuses and differences, with the same logic a different attack rates could be included (call it a number of attacks/turn in some other ways)

It works for mobs as I see

I don't quite understand your concern. The number of attacks depends on speed. Speed depends on agility. Agility depends on race. And I really don't see a reason why a slothy, fat, clumsy elf should have a better base attack rate than an agile human who has been a fighter all his life, just because he has long ears. It is more than sufficient that elves have a much easier time to boost their agility than most other races, which also means that they hit faster than most other races.

[stilgar]

I gave up

[chara]

I believe most mobs that have extra attacks have things like extra limbs to justify them

[stilgar]

Must have missed something while looking at minecrawlers

[anglachel]

The stat 'agility' already infulnce the attack-rate, together with many
other factors (the weapon, the encumbrance and so on)
The elves starts with a higher agility as a human and they are able
to boost it much quicker (and higher) as every human.
So a elf has a higer attack rate as a human, if all other is equal
besides the race.
Of course if the elf swings a heavy twohander, wears a plate-mail and
the human uses a light rapier and wears only leather armours, the
human has the better rate!

[Dekhan]

Okay okay... my kind of topic. I must say... speed has a fantastic effect in combat already. Though i wouldnt be against it being even more effective I do think it's really good already though. Else how would an unarmed, unarmoured halfling (who shall remain nameless ) manage to tank ogres, trolls and even thurses? However in PVP it's vastly different. I get hit a lot by dwarves and such as Stilgar mentioned before. But I didnt make a halfling char to be a warrior. I made him for rp reasons. People with elven chars shouldnt expect to be able to beat dwarves based on speed alone... as Kortha said.. dwarfs are mini fighting machines.

[Kortha]

I think it's fine the way it is. But I'll add something no one else has brought up yet. If there were more things to do besides fighting, I doubt ppl would be complaining so much. The crafts we have now all require fighting in some way...sure you can buy what you need from others but how are you going to get the money to buy them without fighting? Other than that we have few noncombat skills, which tend not to be entertaining for very long, especially when they have to be practiced inside a guildhall or somesuch. People wonder why I sit around jabbering so much, but the fact is, it'd take some *really* interesting teams to keep me from dying of boredom after 3 ogre trips heh.

[chara]

There are ways to earn money without fighting. Skalds, for example, can earn money by playing in pubs. You can offer services for money, if you have any special talents, or you can sell whatever you are crafting. Some quests also give you money, and not all quests require fighting.

Though of course, if you have ideas for more ways to earn money, I am sure they would be welcome.

[chara]

And about speed in combat, I just remembered a nice example - when my poor player character spent literally _hours_ RL time in combat with the fairies. Good grief! They couldn't do much to kill me, and they were weak as hell, but I couldn't hit the darned things (even with my elf). It took all that time just to get a couple of lucky shots in to kill them.

[stilgar]

That is more of size ratio I guess.. faeries like 13-18cm big and fast like an elf, so chasing them is like chasing a mosquito