Some general combat observations

[nogem]

Overall I love the combat system in the game. Fast hits a lot, strong hits a lot harder. Makes sense. Here are a few things that have struck me as odd lately:

A human in heavy armour with a huge sword *not to name any specific character or anything * has no special involving his weapon with a chance of a one hit critical giving a kill, even on a goblin, even shoving said sword all the way through the brain or heart and twisting it. This with a sword skill in the mid 90s and impale approaching 90.

An elf with special sharpened bow can one hit critical *multiple* enemies in a single strike if he has light enough armour and gets lucky. This with a spear skill in the low 70s and spin skill in the low 50s.

True, the spinner will gripe about a lack of pouring blood - but they have a way to hit more than one foe and can kill more than one in one attack. Also true, the impale/gore does nearly no initial damage, has no chance of a 1 hit kill, and is good for one and only one foe, but it does make the blood flow like a river. This all balances very well, as long as you never touch heavy armours.
Use heavy armours and a two handed weapon - well, better hope you jump high enough to break a neck with your knee, and forget about striking more than one foe in a swing - regardless of how long a weapon you are swinging? No, I don't think it would be right for a heavily armoured person to spin to as many targets as a light armour person - but a huge sword/polearm/chain weapon..... should have some way to hit more than just one person at a time. That was actually the purpose of such obnoxiously sized swords and spears in real history (yes I know this is a game).


A fighter of any race/speed/strength can count on falling over in a fight if they do not land most knee attacks. Even with a knee skill above 90 fighting npcs that never knee. Do people who learn to use knees never learn how to not land on their rump when they miss?

Kick - see above

Still enjoying the game, just my 2cc worth of observations.
*checks pockets*
well, back to mining....

[Kortha]

I don't know about use of heavy armor, but in my experience high acrobat helps a lot with the falling over thing.

What bugs me is that a highly skilled person will still fumble a lot on non-special attacks. This is especially annoying when you get a feint...and then you fumble.

It seems to me that geas is filled with heroes who spend most of their time falling over and hurting themselves with their weapons. Somehow this doesn't sound quite right...

[chara]

In my opinion, waving big, sharp, pointy things around in a chaotic battle situation can be a bit dangerous. Even heroes manage to mess up sometimes.

Also, to the best of my knowledge, spin can be done with enormous swords, just like impale can. So if you don't like impale, and think spin is much more useful, use spin instead. I don't think impaling more than one enemy at a time makes a lot of sense.

Furthermore, it can be kind of difficult to balance and stuff with weighty armours when doing stuff like knee and kick.

Finally, these are all balance issues. Yes, it would be realistic if an impale was lethal every time. Yes, it would be realistic to kill an unconscious enemy without a chance of failing. And yes, no one in heavy plate should be able to knee, kick, walk more than a couple of steps, or do a lot of the other movements that people in Geas can do. It would also make combat much less fun. There are a lot of things that wouldn't stand up to real world scrutiny, but make combat much more entertaining.

I don't think it pays off to make combat more realistic but less fun, while destroying the possibility of anyone less experienced to have a chance of survival... does it?

[nogem]

spin can be done with enormous swords, just like impale can. So if you don't like impale, and think spin is much more useful, use spin instead.

I was referring specifically to weapon use with heavy armour vs. light armour

Furthermore, it can be kind of difficult to balance and stuff with weighty armours when doing stuff like knee and kick.

Makes sense

Yes, it would be realistic if an impale was lethal every time.

I would hate if it was lethal every time. What a bore. However, it's currently *never* lethal - *ever* that I have seen in dozens of impales and gores against much weaker npcs, at best it knockes them out - while even knee, elbow, slam, headbutt or half a dozen other specials can be.

It would also make combat much less fun.

Exactly

I don't think we're really asking to make all as real world as possible, kill the fun of the game, or doom less experienced players. It isn't very fun when you are fighting a hard hitting npc, or pc for that matter, and you see that feign or counter you were hoping for and then hit yourself instead - with your 80 + fencing skill.

As far as heavy armour vs. light armour - not long ago there was a message posted about how when both sides are complaining that usually indicates balance. In the case of the differences of armours the heavy armour side has been complaining for a long time - only the players haven't voiced disdain about the effects of a heavy armour. Instead they have absolutely flocked to the other available options.

Between the fall of the Legion and even for a long time after I started playing Nogem heavy armour was dead to geas characters, and to this day he still catches a good amount of IC crap, just as I catch OOC crap about how heavy it is - slow/sitting duck/anchored in place/unable to strike back it makes you (realistic/fun issue right there IMO - and don't stop with the crap - it's very entertaining and I enjoy the jesting). Even many of characters trying to rp the same guild have tried them, only to later do the normal version of complaining about how worthless being heavily armoured is in general as they stop using them all together.

I have also heard comments about how hard it is to get a hit through them, but npcs have been the only ones who have seemed to have any trouble when they were using anything larger than a dagger - but the damage dealt has been lighter per hit.

And the trade off? - unlike the other armours which face only the trade off between speed/protection, a player who chooses to play a heavy armour character, which naturally fits with a large/2 hand weapon, not only has to give up speed for lowered damage but must also forget ever getting to use a weapon special and see that occasional flash of color that says 'you got lucky and they're dead' without using a tiny weapon(out of place IMO) and a 'slam'. Any chance of ever hitting more than one thing at a time also becomes a permanent thing of the past as the only guild that touches heavy armour right now is one that is RP only to date and accordingly has no special abilities/miracles that make them stronger or harm multiple foes at a time.


For the record, I am not saying the game is no fun and let's kill everybody else's fun for my own. These are observations and opinions. I am still having fun with the game either way, and whether this minor detriment goes away or not my main char is a heavy armour character (and will continue getting thumped by faster characters for it).

[Abharsair]

Let me try to explain a bit of the combat without giving away too much detail. Right now if one heavily armoured guy duels one lightly armoured warrior, if both have comparable skills and stats, and if both use weapons which deal decent damage, then the lightly armoured warrior usually wins. Why? Because he can run in circles around the slow, encumbered enemy and poke him where it hurts. Does he always win? No. But he wins more often than he loses (and yes, we tested it a lot).

However, if we alter the situation a bit and the heavily armoured warrior is in the middle of melee fighting with multible enemies, and the lightly armoured guy also fights multible enemies, then the heavily armoured warrior has much better chances to survive. Why? Because if you fight more than one enemy the chances of being hit increase a lot, and if being hit can't be avoided, armour helps a lot.

So as you can see, light and heavy armour have both their advantages and disadvantages. The combat system is complex, and there is no setup for warriors which is ideal for all situations, and that's intentional. It depends a lot on which enemies you fight , on how many there are and which weapons they use. What works great against two trolls might not work so well against a darkelf with a long pointy spear and leather armours. Therefore if you want to be able to deal with all situations, you'll have to be proficient with more than just one armour and weapon type. And that's also intentional.

[jezz]

Yep, agree with big A

Jezz as an example, has been told around that he's very powerful and stuff. But trust me, before each battle, I have to consider carefully what enemy I'm fighting and how should I do.

Before even entering into Jezz's possibilities, things like "will I ambush him while he's fighting two trolls?" or "will I try to score a strong hit fast to make him run into my trap two rooms ahead?" start to make a difference on "how strong you are"

Then in combat, I had to learn three different styles, with armours, without, frenzy, defend and miracles, mix of them all...

So even a char like Jezz, with his main skills at 100, has to toggle t other less trained skills that proof much more useful in certain situations. The main point was pointed out by Abh, and a treasure for Geas, is that no char can kill everything always with the same tactic.

Because if you rely on your weapon someone will disarm you, if you rely on your armour someone will aim at your less protected zone and make you bleed or use miracles, if you always try to dodge your enemy with your maxed agility, that enemy will get a feint in...

I could continue I'm a powergamer after all

[nogem]

Main point I was trying to make:
* Any armours but heavy - chance to kill up to 4 things in one move with weapon.

* Heavy armour - no chance at killing something in one move with a large weapon.
SO:
Elf wearing leather with 2 foot sword in both hands - can kill 4 things. Bare handed? Still a chance of a one hit kill!
Tshahark in battle-armour with fauchard in both hands - no possibility of the fun colored text we all enjoy.


Heavy armour vs light armour all around - heavy armour is really disadvantaged
Proof?
Nobody who isn't told to do it by the dragonguard will touch the stuff, and most of them complain or quit.
Why?
It's always nice when you can plan your attack, but you can't usually plan when somebody is going to attack you. Even in a team, a faster lighter player will usually whale on you as an individual.

I have the same chance to play it with the same boring equipment set half the mud uses for this reason and choose not to, but I can't see it all as evenly or even really closely balanced (or much fun to know your first strike will never produce that neat effect if you use your weapon) when the overwhelming majority of the playerbase shows/has shown it isn't with their actions/equipment choices. If the wizzies who give us the fun to have do not or will not see it this way is obviously fine. I will have to agree to disargree.

[Abharsair]

You don't take into account that most of the warrior guilds have armour restrictions and got no choice. Heavy armour is a no go for Crusaders for example.

Also, the damage of knee, elbow, bodycheck and headbutt is related to the armour and favours those with heavy armour.

Next thing, if you take the big fat tshahark with platemail and a polearm as an example, he could always do backswing if he is so keen on hitting multible enemies.

And lastly, gore does a much higher average damage than spin does, so I don't quite understand why you want to trade that damage for a pretty small chance of instant kill.

[jezz]

Not to mention, I still have to see any player getting a instant kill with spin against a strong foe wearing strong armours.

Because sure, you can kill ogres (no armours) and a full load of goblins (no comments), but actually... I don't see where the marvelous thing is with that.

And as Abh said, you have more chances of getting that funny colours you seem to like so much, using elbow, headbutt or knee while wearing heavy armours.

[tessa]

Hm, for what it's worth, my char is a leather-clad elf, but no one plate-bound opponent with a twohander weapon has ever had a problem of hitting her hard, npc or pc.