Delete Karma

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Lauriert
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Delete Karma

#1 Post by Lauriert » Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:43 pm

I've seriously had it with Karma. It's a horrible mechanic which needs deleted immediately.

Why?

This stupid troll made a bunch of tshahark characters to harass Lauriana IC, as in, actually try to kill her. Lauriert naturally stood up for her, causing the gang to attack him. He was forced to kill them, or else they would just keep being annoying. Like, spamming messages, talking OOC while IC, and following people around. But because they were newbies, my karma took a big hit. Before anyone asks, yes I reported it. This is complete bs and nobody who is trying to get rid of trolls should be screwed over by the game's own mechanics. Because of the aforementioned karma tank, a crusader using holy word during a darkelf attack caused the guards to attack me and make me an offender in Elvandar. Do I have to pay gandalug 20 gold coins for my sins? Because that's the only practical way to up karma unless you can literally solo Eal-Delia. Delete it. Seriously.

ila
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Re: Delete Karma

#2 Post by ila » Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:56 pm

Sounds like the problem was people being abusive rather than karma.

If they were not abusing anything, and in fact acting rationally, then murdering them to shut them up would be a pretty evil act.

Though if they were being abusive like this, I'm not sure what killing them would solve, as ghosts can do all these things too.

Lauriert
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Re: Delete Karma

#3 Post by Lauriert » Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:57 pm

Ghosts can't try to murder someone.

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Re: Delete Karma

#4 Post by Lauriert » Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:01 pm

The other possibility I'm told is that since I was team leader, the guards attacking Ananth caused them to attack me too, and apparently, even getting attacked by the gate guards, even in misunderstanding, tanks your karma. Gotta be honest, that's not any better.

ila
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Re: Delete Karma

#5 Post by ila » Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:01 pm

Oh, I see. Unfortunately it's a bit too easy to roll a new character and bother people on it, this can go way beyond just karma, though I won't say any more to avoid giving further ideas.

Don't disagree that karma has flaws by the way, just think it's important to categorize the issue of what happened. If people abused emotes, I'd prefer them being punished over everyone losing emotes, for example.

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Re: Delete Karma

#6 Post by Lauriert » Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:04 pm

I had my problems with karma before. What I'm presenting now is that it gives trolls a platform to be a troll. I know this isn't an intended part of the mechanic, but if it's this much trouble, deleting it may be better. I am kind of mad about the whole thing, as anyone honestly would be expected to be.

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Delia
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Re: Delete Karma

#7 Post by Delia » Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:25 am

There could have been much better ways about it. Killing someone is not usually the best way. You could have stunmoded them and dragged them away. Stunmoded and tied with a rope or simply...left. In this instance the troll was highly successful. It is always better to just keep your cool.
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

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Delia
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Re: Delete Karma

#8 Post by Delia » Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:22 am

As for actually deleting karma, I think it would be a bad move even if I too think karma is far from perfect and sometimes causes trouble. Karma was added because players did not adhere to the vision the creators of this game had. When there was no karma or reputation nor a judge system, dark elves could be respectable members of society and all cuddly Gwen-like beings. Evils teamed with goodies and vice versa as they wished.

As gentle urgings did nothing, mechanisms to control player actions were put into place. Karma, reputation, law, dark elves were removed from starting race and were changed to result of an evil ritual resulting in an evil being. This resulted in a game world where good has to work for it and evil can behave pretty much as they please which is a good enough approximation.

Personally I do not yearn for the chaos of yesterdays but I agree something could be done. So I would rephrase: how should karma be tweaked?
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

Lauriert
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Re: Delete Karma

#9 Post by Lauriert » Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:34 am

Stunmode wasn't really an option. There were like 5 of them. Also, I can't quite figure how Karma could possibly be changed to make it good because it's too much of a mess.

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Delia
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Re: Delete Karma

#10 Post by Delia » Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:35 am

One rough idea I just had would be to have newbies exist outside karma. They simple would have none effectively but would gather "invisible karma" and they could not affect karma of others.

You could twist lore as you like, perhaps they have not been weighed yet and one rite of passage into adulthood would be to step into the scales of Zhakrin which would then reveal what karma the character has accrued. All with appropriate pomp and ritual. It would give Zhakrin some nice role too, if one assumes he stays out of godly bickerings in general.

Could be thematical and also alleviate the issue?
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

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Re: Delete Karma

#11 Post by Melendil » Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:47 am

I think part of the issue lies in the code based nature of karma's administration. The code can't handle exceptional circumstances where, RP wise, karma adjustment doesn't make sense. For example, associating with someone with an extreme opposed karma rating will drag your karma towards theirs, but ideally there should be some difference between hanging around casually, standing there to berate them for their lifestyle, or listening with interest as they begin to sway you. That's really difficult to do automatically. I guess perhaps the system could react based on certain moods or words in speech, but I imagine that would be nightmarish to code and probably still not terribly reliable. Another option would be some system of karma judges, have a person decide whether a certain situation requires karma adjustment, but that feels like a gargantuan administrative task that's probably not practical, nor fair to expect a volunteer to manage.

I think there could perhaps be more in the way of karmic penance, perhaps a way for clergies or some similar service to assign a task or fee to remove your most recent significant negative karma adjustment (or the previous day of karma adjustment, relative to what your faith considered negative), but I don't know enough about the karma system to know if that's possible. Something along the lines of "ask <priest> penance" "Yes, <god> was most displeased when you <did sinful thing>, to be absolved of this you must <do penance>". Penance activities could be things like bringing them a scalp/head of a specific creature (or multiples), donating a certain fee, or perhaps more fun RP things like a vow of silence for a period of time, or being mutilated/branded.

This wouldn't fix the karma system being clumsy (I'm not sure there is a way it can work any better than it currently does) but perhaps having more interesting ways to manage karma might make it feel like less of a nuisance?

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Re: Delete Karma

#12 Post by ceinna » Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:16 am

I've dealt with karma drop from the guards (hello Druid hood & forgetting to drop it). There are absolutely ways to fix your karma without just giving away a ton of coin or being able to solo Eal Deliah by yourself (both of which were impossible for druids - and something I know TONS of druids dealt with at least 1 time in their playing while we had the hoods).

The karma system is not perfect, but it is necessary for all the reasons poDelia stated.

If you are worried about your karma, and it means a lot to you, then its okay for your character to be picky about who they hang out - they should in fact. Ask people to check their karma before taking them with you. Plan your friends around karma.

I have found the issue is not that the karma system isn't perfect (which you are right, it isn't), it tends more towards the fact that so many people IGNORE its existence until it causes problems like this. The game was always meant to have a VERY polaristic good vs evil feel. The fact that people ignore that because of I want to play with my friends, does not make the system less valid.

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Re: Delete Karma

#13 Post by Ioca » Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:28 pm

frustrated post deleted due to concern of multiple good players
Last edited by Ioca on Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Delete Karma

#14 Post by Caimen » Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:15 pm

Two things.

One: Don't insult cabbage. My primary moniker around the net is evilcabbage, and cabbage is amazing. It's full of vitamins and goodness and it's superior to lettuce in every way, shape, or form.

Two: Insulting other players of the game is completely uncalled for. Accusing them of not playing their character well by backhandedly complimenting them is not cool, and makes you look pretty mean. If you're having issues with karma, stop hanging out with people who have bad karma. Easy-peasy. Tanielites aren't "good" people. Taniel isn't a "good" God. He's the God of Laws and Justice. His methods are not going to be good, or kind, to anyone who is against him. If you have an issue with a specific player, there are places to go to ask someone to handle it. If they are unwilling or unable to do so, or if they rule against you, the best thing you can do is drop it, which is honestly the best thing you can do anyways. I'm really tired of hearing about this kind of thing.

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Delia
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Re: Delete Karma

#15 Post by Delia » Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:22 pm

Hear hear, well said! I am feeling mighty tired of this all too.
"To be is to do" - Sokrates
"To do is to be" - Jean-Paul Sartre
"Do be do be do" - Frank Sinatra

Ioca
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Re: Delete Karma

#16 Post by Ioca » Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:35 pm

frustrated post deleted due to concern of multiple good players
Last edited by Ioca on Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Delete Karma

#17 Post by Caimen » Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:45 pm

The same can be said about a player ruling that another player is subverting the game. Which is exactly what you're doing. Try as one may, Ioca's aren't qualified to rule about what is intended or not intended about the lore of a game that was written by other people, nor about whether a player is "playing" or "subverting".

Your call-out looks like an insult from here. I thought you would appreciate a little turnabout.

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Re: Delete Karma

#18 Post by Ioca » Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:47 pm

frustrated post deleted due to concern of multiple good players
Last edited by Ioca on Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Delete Karma

#19 Post by Caimen » Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:00 pm

That's not how you've come across, and if that isn't how you meant to come across, you should take more time to think about what you say, before you say it, and maybe choose a better way to word things.

As to your previous point, about there being no recourse? That's laughable. If you had that serious an issue with a player, any Wizard could handle it, and probably would if you were patient to wait for their response. Stop filling the board with this drama. If you hate the player that much, rather than the character, then I'd just advise you stop letting them live in your head and play somewhere that isn't around them. Or stop playing at all. The way you say things and the way you've talked about at least this specific player is incredibly unwarranted. Things happen in the game. That doesn't give you any right, whatsoever, to blast at them OOCly, on the forums, for everyone to see - or anywhere else for that matter. In the games I came from, this kind of stuff would get you in serious trouble, if not banned permanently from the game.

This kind of OOC witchhunting and assaulting another player through the text does nothing to benefit the game. All it does is push those players away - and then other players follow them to leave, and suddenly there's even less people playing than there were before.

ila
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Re: Delete Karma

#20 Post by ila » Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:19 pm

Although I personally am in a position to find that last paragraph above my post extremely ironic, since we have a playerarch now, these things are hopefully not necessary on the forum anymore and should probably just be removed until said new playerarch at least has a reasonable time to investigate the presumably countless matters dropped on him.

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