Supplication

Message

aragog · #21 Post by **aragog** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:45 am

Tessa,

I would recommend to read Jezz's last posting carefully and then read your own answer again. This might clear up the situation a bit more perhaps.

Besides that, I would like to join Jezz and Kaspars for the friendly response in general from the other players

poAragog

tessa · #22 Post by **tessa** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:01 am

aragog wrote:I would recommend to read Jezz's last posting carefully and then read your own answer again. This might clear up the situation a bit more perhaps.

So Sathos are at a disadvantage at ED and Kyir. Guess what? There are some places where goodies are at a disadvantage, too, as well as places for neutrals.

And I recommend you to read my last post carefully, and see that I was referring to the point Itenin made, not Jezz. And also carefully read the earlier post I made that you seemed to answer so defensively about, and see it was to Itenin, not Jezz or Sathos, and was a general rhetorical question not directed to any person or persons in particular. At least not until it was derailed with this defensive mini-argument.

Maybe that will clear the situation up even more.

#23 Post by **Abharsair** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:09 am

In regards to Jezz' original post:

While I sympathize with your general complaint about a lack of areas to explore, I do not feel any pity whatsoever concerning your complaint about the areas you mentioned. Why? Because if you really want the same means and effectiveness in areas inhabited by demons and undeads as the good side does, it would be unfair to your enemies if you then can still kill all those good critters such as faeries, fauns, sphinxes, unicorns, high elves, elven guards and the various NPCs throughout the game, which are taboo for the average authentic good guy.

So the equation is simple. You can either kill pretty much whatever you want with various degrees of effectiveness, or you are restricted to a much more selective choice of enemies, against some of which you are specialized. But you can't have both.

aragog · #24 Post by **aragog** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:31 am

Hmmm, sorry Abharsair, but that wasn't really the point Jezz was trying to get to, I think. The point is more, that the INTERESTING areas are mostly designed for goodies and their abilities. ED offers a lot of stuff to explore and probably so does Kyir. It's not about killing creatures, its about atmosphere and exploration and having a bit fun. And at this point Jezz is right if he says: the interesting areas belong to the goodies mostly. As for fauns and unicorns and nymphs. Nice for the daily kill, just like Ironhold, but nothing to spend a day exploring. And this is not only a point that touches Sathos, but most other neutral or semi-good players as well. Actually those players who don't have the right weapons and the healers to go for such an area, even if they team up with 6 or 7 people.

poAragog

chara · #25 Post by **chara** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:38 am

From my perspective, it's a little frustrating to hear about things being "bitten back" for years, and then coming to a head. There's no reason to "bite back" feelings if you think something is missing in Geas - but what helps a lot is, well, help bringing those things about.

For example, on two totally separate occasions, I was approached about having an independent scribes' guild outside of a city in Elvandar, where evil guys could mingle with good or neutral guys and participate in the guild in peace. Both times, I said, sure, suggest a location and write the room descriptions and I'll implement it. In neither case was even a location ever settled upon. And yet now, there's again complaint that the evil guys don't have as many guilds that they can visit.

I know that in most games, the players passively play what the game developers create, but Geas is different - it's much more interactive, and it places a lot of responsibility on the players to co-shape the world, either through their roleplay or through active participation in writing.

Abh has put in countless hours of work on the new continent, and it's really cool - there are some great areas for everyone. But even when he asked for a little bit of help coming up with desert descriptions on the Wiki, almost no one responded. Instead, he gets stupid insults in threads like this one.

I've asked for some books to help stock the Elvandar library for weeks now, and just yesterday, finally, a scribe stepped forward and offered to contribute. Participation in a major library like that should be a huge honor for a scribe, but apparently, there's just not much interest shown. And the Elvandar Library was a player suggestion in the first place.

I'm not trying to make anyone feel guilty, but it's simply a fact that wizards are overtaxed, which means that things move very. slowly. And that the best way to get new things in the game more quickly is not to bite back talking about what you feel is missing, but to suggest them, or more useful, suggest them and then help write for them, or help out on other projects to free up wizard time for new stuff, and to bring about the cool stuff we have planned more quickly.

And a big thank you for all the ways that players have contributed, both in terms of roleplay and actual text contributions. The sphinx area was written by players, and so was the unicorn grove. These things were able to be implemented quickly because the descriptions and the ideas were provided, and took a minimum of wizard time to put in-game.

#26 Post by **Abharsair** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:43 am

aragog wrote:Hmmm, sorry Abharsair, but that wasn't really the point Jezz was trying to get to, I think. ...

It actually was. He complains he can't explore those areas as effectively as some of the good guys can, because the creatures there are not good enough to be affected by his evil miracles, and I explained to you all why that is. If the Sathos have all the freedom they have right now AND are able to do everything as good as the good side can do, then there is no incentive to be good.

aragog · #27 Post by **aragog** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:50 am

No Abha, it wasn't. He was not complaining that he cannot explore Kyir, but that the interesting areas are designed for goodies. He was not asking for more power but for more areas where EVERYONE can go and which are still very interesting.

Chara - most of the Satho stuff was written by players and I am sorry if you feel like beeing picked on now. That was not our intention and will never be.

poAra

chara · #28 Post by **chara** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:07 am

Aragog, I certainly don't feel picked on, I'm reminding you of the most effective way that you can get more areas of the types you'd like to see in-game. There's nothing personal about that, it's just a fact.

By the way, Jezz did very explicitly complain about not being able to explore Kyir. Your opinion might be that that wasn't the main thrust of his post, and it might not be the part that's important to you, but that was the part that Abharsair was addressing.

Aside from that, you feel that there's a lack in-game, and no one is denying that. More areas to explore are always nifty, whether they're designed for "good," "bad," or "neutral" guys, and they are constantly being constructed - but slowly. My thread addresses the best way to get those new areas implemented more quickly.

kaspars · #29 Post by **kaspars** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:17 am

At least for me there is slight difference between disappointment like `damn, miracles are working bad` and sad discovery - `bah, another cool area made for goodies, another quest and story for good side .. sigh`.
That was actual meaning of the original post. We can`t compare El-Deliah with faun forest even if unicorns are about the same strength as skeleton or ghoul in ED.

To make things clear:
We are not asking for super powers to be able to win all, kill all, eliminate all. (we would be happy to receive them, though

)
We are not whining about little number of NPCs to kill as we have plenty.
We are not whining about lack of dozens of areas to explore as we understand it is damn hard to create them. Yes, it really is, but when it is created, we would like to get some fun out of it just like others.

Yes, I agree with Abharsair that in some ways we, Sathos, are in much better situation then `goodies` - we have free hands to do a lot of things average `goodie` cant afford. We can kill Patrol, we can kill thilden guards and create row of ghouls, in the end we can go and with some luck empty Elvandar. This all is true and we are not discussing it.

#30 Post by **Abharsair** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:23 am

aragog wrote:No Abha, it wasn't. He was not complaining that he cannot explore Kyir, but that the interesting areas are designed for goodies. He was not asking for more power but for more areas where EVERYONE can go and which are still very interesting.

First at all, he specifically mentioned Eal-Deliah and Kyir, and also specifically complains about:

jezz wrote:The demons there don't bleed... are barely injured by our miracles... and some times they even resist them... Hmmm, wait... sounds familiar to me... tic tac, tic tac... Oh! Eal-Deliah! Undeads! Damn, I wish there would be someone who could hack through undeads like butter............. *brighten* Darn.

Aside from that, yes, maybe he was talking about the bigger picture, but considering that those two areas are pretty much the only areas where Sathos have a hard time exploring makes the whole thing a bit moot.

Also, those areas are not designed for goodies. Kyir for example was designed for Asrals, and the reason you had a hard time there (which triggered Jezz' complaint) is explained by my earlier posts, and you also ignored my statement concerning the incentive for being good.

jezz · #31 Post by **jezz** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:35 am

chara wrote:From my perspective, it's a little frustrating to hear about things being "bitten back" for years, and then coming to a head. There's no reason to "bite back" feelings if you think something is missing in Geas - but what helps a lot is, well, help bringing those things about.

If I didn't bring up this topic before is simply because I tried to avoid this situation and keep on playing and having fun. If the right option would have been to whine instantly the first time I found something that I thought was not fair, then I'm sorry.

chara wrote:For example, on two totally separate occasions, I was approached about having an independent scribes' guild outside of a city in Elvandar, where evil guys could mingle with good or neutral guys and participate in the guild in peace. Both times, I said, sure, suggest a location and write the room descriptions and I'll implement it. In neither case was even a location ever settled upon. And yet now, there's again complaint that the evil guys don't have as many guilds that they can visit.

I wrote in in my two last posts, but I can write a third one if it's need. _I'm not asking for guilds, skills, powers, weapons, armours, magic items, zones, monsters, custom emotes or the last CD of the Spice Girls_

I assume if we don't have a scribe guild is because our own fault. I assume if a new guild for Sathos is not built is because we stopped giving ideas for it. And I believe it's not only me but the rest of "evil guys" who assume our own mistakes. Lack of time, when shared by only 3 people instead of 20 or 30 is a good handicap, although by no means I'm trying to evade my responsability for our lack of features coded.

As for Abh's post, I'm quite sorry you misunderstood my aim, but the fact that I think we have known each other for quite some time in GEAS is enough so that I don't try to explain it further.

The support from some players was good, thank you. The topic though was a request more for the wizards, and so far from the replies I got, I don't think this did any good to help our situation.

From my side, the thread is closed.

Thank you.

chara · #32 Post by **chara** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:15 am

I think I'm kind of missing your point here. Maybe I can sum up:

Jezz, Kaspars, and Aragog are saying that there aren't enough "cool" areas that bad guys - as well as perhaps other neutral and barely-good guys - can explore, and that it was disappointing to get to Kyir and discover that the evil powers don't work so well on evil monsters.

Abh replied that it only makes sense that evil powers wouldn't work well on evil guys, to do otherwise would be overpowered.

I replied that yes, it would be great to have more areas to explore, but that adding new areas is right now a very slow process, carried out by a very few active wizards with a huge amount of work on their hands, and that a good way to speed progress would be to contribute, either by helping to make new areas that you'd like to see or by helping us finish current projects when we ask, so that our time is freed up for new undertakings.

And yet, the reaction from Aragog, Kaspers, and Jezz has seemed to be -- wizards think that the current level of areas to explore is just fine, and that evil guys should just shut up and be quiet. But no one has said that. The new continent has a huge amount of area, much of which you guys will love, and we've been working on getting that live for a long time now, and have made great progress. But we don't have time to get it up and running instantly. Huge areas = huge amounts of work, and take time. The only way to make that time go faster is by volunteering to help, or by giving us enough money to make us independently wealthy so we can quit our jobs

Olrane · #33 Post by **Olrane** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:10 pm

I hear you, Chara. Also, I highly appreciate all of the hard work on the part of the wizards and huge amount of heeded feedback from players especially in the last year or so. I think it was Gojin who mentioned it on the OOC board - whether people have noticed it or not, so many ideas here and there have been put into code recently and done so splendidly.

So then, instead of complaining, I'd like to know what we players can do to help, specifically. Are there generic descriptions you would like help in cranking out? Can we follow up on projects like the Scribes?

I'd be willing to contribute...after playing here for a while, I feel a duty to do my part in making this great MUD better. And there's definitely that little bit of personal pride when you see your own description somewhere.
I don't write well or quickly, but I'll gladly throw in a few descs for you to accept or reject, if it would help at all.

Delmon · #34 Post by **Delmon** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:03 pm

I'd be willing to contribute...after playing here for a while, I feel a duty to do my part in making this great MUD better. And there's definitely that little bit of personal pride when you see your own description somewhere.
I don't write well or quickly, but I'll gladly throw in a few descs for you to accept or reject, if it would help at all.

Same here

endellion · #35 Post by **endellion** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:12 pm

I would gladly help in any way. Including writing books and everything for the library, as well as writing room descriptions. I enjoy writing things, although my descriptions can be wordy and far to detailed and I would have to get over my poetic ramblings side. But I would LOVE to help!

chara · #36 Post by **chara** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:18 am

Thanks so much for the offers of help! I definitely have little tasks that you could help with, and I'll contact you in-game for more information

Vargrahim · #37 Post by **Vargrahim** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:48 am

Delmon wrote:Geas roleplay also causes people to view the "goodies" in a better light when they hear of "valiant" attempts of characters trying to stop you from turning elvandar guards into ghouls. Is this all bad? I don't think so, but it does mean recruitment for baddies is extremely hard(which is a whole other topic).

1. Goodies are not put in a better light, _especially_ not for defending elvandar. There is no guild which is more critized IC than the crusaders and taniel clerics, and I'd like to claim they drag the heaviest load when it comes to that.

2. Recruitment is just as difficult. Sure, there are less to choose from. But for long, the taniel clerics and crusaders were the default 'newbie dump'. Nothing bad about that, but many leave after only a week. And a large part of those realize the atmosphere is better in the evil camp since it is more mature, and some convert or create new characters.