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Re: Balance issues - PVP
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:20 am
by Zehren
fernao wrote:From what I take, Nathan was pointing out that maybe the fact that you could do such a hit and run tactic in the first place is the problem and that the trap miracle is a remedy for that.
Put in another way, IF e.g. all specials and such would work like miracles, meaning you can start initiating the action, have to wait for it to finish and then it gets released it wouldn't be a problem. Meaning, you enter, then you start to prepare your gore, which takes x seconds, then gore is exectuted, or you have to be in the same room as your target, then you can start loading the bow and shoot the arrow it would be fine. Or, clerics can prepare their miracle and run around without losing the ability to trigger it, it would be even grounds, as it is, the trap miracle returns a bit of even grounds to a prior uneven situation.
I fully support making all actions in combat take time.
Including moving away.
Re: Balance issues - PVP
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:22 am
by luminier
fernao wrote:From what I take, Nathan was pointing out that maybe the fact that you could do such a hit and run tactic in the first place is the problem and that the trap miracle is a remedy for that.
Put in another way, IF e.g. all specials and such would work like miracles, meaning you can start initiating the action, have to wait for it to finish and then it gets released it wouldn't be a problem. Meaning, you enter, then you start to prepare your gore, which takes x seconds, then gore is exectuted, or you have to be in the same room as your target, then you can start loading the bow and shoot the arrow it would be fine. Or, clerics can prepare their miracle and run around without losing the ability to trigger it, it would be even grounds, as it is, the trap miracle returns a bit of even grounds to a prior uneven situation.
I understand what he was saying.
However, he was saying that he did not like the hit and run tactic. I avoid miracles by doing the hit and run tactic.
His tactic is sitting and waiting for me to get hit by miracles.
I choose to avoid that and so I move around away from them.
There is a remedy for the hit and run "problem".
There is not a remedy for the turtling "problem".
Is that more clear?
Zehren wrote:I fully support making all actions in combat take time.
Including moving away.
I am not. The combat in Geas is suppose to be fast paced, isn't that one of the defining factors in Geas? The reason miracles take time is because they are very powerful magic spells and they need to be cast. Casting takes time. Spearing someone in the guts does not take a very long time.
If specials are to take as long as miracles to execute I would like some pretty damn powerful specials please and thank you.
Re: Balance issues - PVP
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:43 am
by Nathan
luminier wrote:Why is your tactic fine, but mine is not?
Didn't mean it that way, Lumi <3. Yours is too, I am fine with nearly all combat tactics.
Re: Balance issues - PVP
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:52 am
by Zehren
luminier wrote:Zehren wrote:I fully support making all actions in combat take time.
Including moving away.
I am not. The combat in Geas is suppose to be fast paced, isn't that one of the defining factors in Geas? The reason miracles take time is because they are very powerful magic spells and they need to be cast. Casting takes time. Spearing someone in the guts does not take a very long time.
If specials are to take as long as miracles to execute I would like some pretty damn powerful specials please and thank you.
An increase in the time it takes to gore others, and such, would also lead to an increased time for casting miracles, and such, in my mindical system. So goring would still be much faster than miracles.
Re: Balance issues - PVP
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:53 am
by Delia
If priests could request and then step out to hunt it would change the playing field completely. I am not saying I am against it but it would also probably mean some other handicaps to the clerics. Mages can currently cast and have spells at ready(all the things that can go boom in your face are too numerous to write here)and it is very powerful when it works as intended. The obvious drawback is that a surprised unprepared mage is nearly helpless as a kitten
Re: Balance issues - PVP
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:59 am
by fernao
Well, other muds I played solved it that way that miracles/spells would take effect immideately, just like combat specials, but that they resulted in a cool-down before a new miracle/spell could be requested. The balance there was achieved by capping combat skills, max 60 for mages and 75 in a select few for clerics, and making combat specials unavailable to them.
Re: Balance issues - PVP
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:03 am
by Nathan
luminier wrote:However, he was saying that he did not like the hit and run tactic. I avoid miracles by doing the hit and run tactic. His tactic is sitting and waiting for me to get hit by miracles. I choose to avoid that and so I move around away from them.
I was only saying that hit and run makes miracles useless, and that - as a cleric - you are mostly reduced to your melee abilities in PvP, without any further evaluation.
luminier wrote:There is a remedy for the hit and run "problem".
There is not a remedy for the turtling "problem".
The so called turtle is a direct consequence of the fact, that a cleric has to stay at one place to use his miracles. There is nothing you really can do against that, or, you just give your miracles up in PvP.
Maybe the solution is simply just to allow clerics to cast while moving?
Re: Balance issues - PVP
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:34 am
by luminier
So now Ill have people running after me shield in hand and shouting nonsensical phrases? Oh Taniel, when will it all end.
Re: Balance issues - PVP
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:40 am
by Delia
No, you will have three readied bonespears launched upon entry
Re: Balance issues - PVP
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:45 am
by Phelan
If people with mounts would have played fair or fairer, probably these
things didn't have to be implemented. But the (ab)use of certain tactics
lead to it, just to give one example:
charge in and ride immediately out <- repeat until
- a) the enemy is dead
- b) out of lances
- c) too hurt -> speedride to Elvandar gate to get free heal/buffs and return
And take also into account that charge hits in backrow, all you can do is
watch how you get beaten up most of the time without time to react and
release a prepared miracle.
Yes, trap is very powerful, but it was needed to counter such, in my opinion,
unfair tactics.
Re: Balance issues - PVP
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:51 am
by Delia
All the mount related issues require attention, I agree. I gather mounts do not, for example, tire still?
Re: Balance issues - PVP
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:53 am
by luminier
@Phelan
Why is using what is available to you unfair?
Before you talked about how I wasn't playing smart, and now I am abusing tactics and playing unfair?
Charge isn't the end all be all everyone seems to think it is. It's damage was nerfed pretty hard years ago (after a charge to the hand brought Ganon to deaths door) and is countered by darkness.
Re: Balance issues - PVP
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:02 am
by Nathan
luminier wrote:So now Ill have people running after me shield in hand and shouting nonsensical phrases? Oh Taniel, when will it all end.
No, seriously, I think we all know why specific tactics are used, and thats ok I mean. But maybe we should also discuss, how "perfect" PvP should be then?
Re: Balance issues - PVP
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:03 am
by fernao
luminier wrote:Why is using what is available to you unfair?
This could be quickly countered by the statement: And now the trap miracle is available. HAR HAR....
Well, trap isn't fully done yet. And using stuff that doesn't make sense to a degree that is can be seen as abuse is usually bound to provoke a reaction by the wizards. I don't know if trap was such a response or not. But one can wonder.
Re: Balance issues - PVP
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:06 am
by Zehren
luminier wrote:@Phelan
Why is using what is available to you unfair?
Before you talked about how I wasn't playing smart, and now I am abusing tactics and playing unfair?
Charge isn't the end all be all everyone seems to think it is. It's damage was nerfed pretty hard years ago (after a charge to the hand brought Ganon to deaths door) and is countered by darkness.
Everyone knows darkelves have their vital organs in their hands. Should be changed back to how it was intended, man.
Please don't put blame on each other for abusing things. If someone has behaved unfairly, issues are to be taken to the playerarch, no?
Nathan wrote:luminier wrote:So now Ill have people running after me shield in hand and shouting nonsensical phrases? Oh Taniel, when will it all end.
No, seriously, I think we all know why specific tactics are used, and thats ok I mean. But maybe we should also discuss, how "perfect" PvP should be then?
Perhaps PvP should be turn-based, with lots of options, and time to emote each round.
It should also be balanced, taking into account current playernumbers, but without changing hilariously in power each time someone joins a guild.
Re: Balance issues - PVP
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:09 am
by luminier
fernao wrote:luminier wrote:Why is using what is available to you unfair?
This could be quickly countered by the statement: And now the trap miracle is available. HAR HAR....
Well, trap isn't fully done yet. And using stuff that doesn't make sense to a degree that is can be seen as abuse is usually bound to provoke a reaction by the wizards. I don't know if trap was such a response or not. But one can wonder.
I never stated it was unfair, I said it was imbalanced. There is a difference =D
And if it's not "fully done" why is it in use and why is it live IG?
Re: Balance issues - PVP
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:26 am
by fernao
With "not fully done" I mean requiring still final balancing. Everything new requires it. Thats why sensible feedback to the wizards is important.
Re: Balance issues - PVP
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:27 am
by luminier
Ah I recall hearing it was bugged as well. I thought you meant that.
Re: Balance issues - PVP
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:35 am
by fernao
I wrote "Is it overpowered and bugged? Probably yes"
That stems from comments of others. As I wrote before, I haven't used the miracle myself yet, neither to test it nor in real combat. I think it was Adanath that mentioned some bug related to his death where the miracle was used.
Without wizard knowledge I am guessing here as much as the next non-wizard.
So I am just assuming that there can be a bug related to the new miracle. Whether or not that is truely the case rests not in my hands.
Re: Balance issues - PVP
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:43 am
by Delmon
If people with mounts would have played fair or fairer, probably these
things didn't have to be implemented. But the (ab)use of certain tactics
lead to it, just to give one example:
charge in and ride immediately out <- repeat until
- a) the enemy is dead
- b) out of lances
- c) too hurt -> speedride to Elvandar gate to get free heal/buffs and return
And take also into account that charge hits in backrow, all you can do is
watch how you get beaten up most of the time without time to react and
release a prepared miracle.
Yes, trap is very powerful, but it was needed to counter such, in my opinion,
unfair tactics.
Why hurt other strategies and characters when there is only one to counter?
My suggestion is nerf the charge ability more so by causing a cooldown of significance.