Clerics, Too strong? (minor spoilers!)

[luminier]

I am not trying to be argumentative but there are players that just play for RP and for fun and usually not for PVP. They tend to gravitate toward the goodies lately.

Not many join (or are allies/friends with) the -war-clerics to just RP, though Moaglesh did a good job of that!

Though I guess that doesn't really have anything to do with clerics being too strong or not, that is just another game dynamic.

[Allurana]

I haven't played for a few years now, but this is a topic I remember going over in my head a lot when I was last around, so I'll throw my perspective into the conversation:

I think Mazar actually hit the nail on the head by showing that the matter at hand isn't so much Fighters v. Clerics but closer to Twohanded Fighters v. Clerics v. Other Fighters.

Twohanded Fighters, particularly "superchars" like Luminier, or Hyper-strength Tshaharks or so forth, can be insanely powerful and can potentially end a fight instantly, so these builds can definitely feel overwhelming. But, on the other hand, Clerics can be just as much of a nightmare to fighters of different builds.

To offer an example, of my dual-wielding light-armored elf versus a platemail-and-shield Asral cleric:

1. I have to divide my attack/defense efforts between a 100-point system, meaning I can only focus on one or the other, or split between both to make them 'average' but not 'great' (not that physical defense matters much against a chain-casting enemy, though). The Cleric can wear the strongest armors possible, harden robe or tunic, bless the armors to make them even stronger, grab the thickest shield available, go mood defend, parry with shield, and start chain-casting their best miracle (in Asral's case, the flamebird). This allows them both 100% offense and defense at the same time.

2. When I go to attack, my attack has to pass several checks: whether I connect or miss (or fumble), whether my attack is blocked by a shield, whether my attack is parried by a weapon or shield, whether my attack is deflected by armor, and, assuming all of that passes, a check on exactly how much damage I deal. On the other hand, my opponent's checks are two: if his concentration breaks (extremely difficult to do) or if his casting fails (seems pretty rare with high favor and decent casting skills), otherwise his attack always connects. How much damage he does would depend on my magical resistance (quite rare), otherwise he hits for full power. How much that full power is does depend greatly on his deity's earthly power, but from my experiences, even average/quite good EP can hurt decently (at least for an elf).

3. I could potentially connect a hit on a Cleric a dozen times or more and deal only superficial damage, which is even more of a nonfactor if the Cleric can self-heal faster than I can 'DPS' (sometimes, even refreshing breeze can be enough). Second, the Cleric only has to cast an attack spell on me around 2-3 times before my HP is in the critical range. The Cleric can also deal additional damage (burning, bleeding) on top of that, and also trap me in the room to increase the odds of being able to deal fatal damage on me before I have a chance to try to survive.

It might be true that Clerics are easier to hit while casting, but also keep in mind that fighters' efficiency goes down also when injured/bleeding/burning alive/etc.

I suspect the new additions like stronger armors and the trap miracle were designed to give Clerics an easier time against the Luminiers and Steroid-Tshsharks out there, but it also had the consequence of making more average fighters' chances to survive against a Cleric even slimmer.

Combine that with other things, such as Satho's Undeads and Crusader's Watchtowers and Unicorns, and it feels like the Clergies and Crusaders pull ahead of the more mundane guilds like Shaos/Rangers/Thieves/etc., which may have personality and nifty gimmicks, but nothing anywhere near the amount of power and control that the religious guilds have.

[Delia]

I personally divide different fighters into two categories: front line who can wear whatever armour, shield and weapon configuration and who are not penalized for that and support/specialized who wear medium/light and possible rely on Deflect for additional protection.

Front line fighters can change their eq for the task at hand and while it might seem at start that you just take hits and everyone is running circles around you, eventually as your skills and stats increase and IF(read carefully)you also have made sure you have learned more than one method of fighting, you will have means to engage just about everything that lives on Forostar. If fighter such as this switches to any other role, be it a Monk or a priest, the fighter skills will contribute a great deal even if there will be some complications.

Support/special fighters such as shaos have a hard time at first but after they reach a certain point, certain types of enemies simply stop to exist for them but there will always be foes that will be extremely troublesome even for a team of monks. Foes that a front liner can just walk through.

I have no experience about thieves or rangers but I gather that they fall somewhere along these lines.

Most frustrations that I notice come from the fact that light support/special characters try to perform as solo front liners. I did too, once and I sure was frustrated.

Also, some combat dynamics seem to follow a rock-paper-scissors pattern. One character cannot be all of those.

[Delia]

Which kinda leads to highbie balance. These are characters who have maxed out, or nearly atleast, many relevant skills and possibly have one or two ultimate stats as well. They easily have good skills and abilities outside their primarily class as well and can do some pretty surprising stuff compared to other characters. And if the player continues to play that character will only continue to grow stronger still.

Now when some aspect is addressed and the highbie becomes nerfed a bit, the player will continue to play until his/her character reaches the point that someone points a finger: "This is OP." What then?

Also when speaking of high strength tshahark fighters, I think they are splendid as they are, though players could surely appreciate more options. The reason why they are treated as they are is because everyone acknowledges their ability. They are feared. Imagine if all the Tshaharks started to have silly ideas and organized themselves? Perish the thought.

[glorfindel]

Support/special fighters such as shaos have a hard time at first but after they reach a certain point, certain types of enemies simply stop to exist for them but there will always be foes that will be extremely troublesome even for a team of monks. Foes that a front liner can just walk through.

In the end, if were talking purely PVP, you can take the monk out of the equation. Nearly none of their skill are made to last in a PVP battle, they are easily disabled and knocked out. Classing them as a support class, is assuming they would have any chance in a PVP fight... they do not. Their strengths lies elsewhere and they make, even solo, acceptable to quite good PVE fighters, depending on the foe at hand. Anything with a two hander is close to a death sentence to any monk, no matter how strong, though. There were times when this frustrated me a lot, esp. since one of the groups you would clash with can effectly reduce you to a simple brawler with one miracle... I try to see it the way that monks are just not meant for PVP and have adjusted accordingly.

[Delia]

Personally I try to see it that they have two good skills they can bring to a fight but as you said, its a hit or miss. If the fight drags on most PvP foes can disable a shao easily and shaos can only bring a fight to an end quickly if they outnumber their opponent greatly. So this begs the much discussed question, why take a shao into a group if you could take a big fighter instead. Been there, done this many times over

Then again there is the much revered RNG-master. Hope for a successful tackle, hope that your opponent fails flickup, wield twohander, aim at neck and hope for a quick follow up.

[glorfindel]

Of course Just saying, pulling shaos into a discussion like that is kind of pointless. Sure there are ways to win such a battle, but Shaos are made to deal with other types of problems. e. g. Undead *cough*.

[ferranifer]

So what's the point of bringing a support second liner when you could just bring another point character that can actually have an impact (mostly through burst damage)? It seems to me that even those "support" rangers are meaningful in PvP engagements only because of their arrow crits.

Maybe the problem is that support isn't as strong as it should, front is much stronger than it should and clerics (specially Asrals) get to be both at the same time.

[luminier]

I agree with everything Allurana said, especially the part about what Mazar said and especially the part about describing an elf versus a mood defend cleric.

Though I do feel like Allurana falls into more of a support role than a front line fighter. Shes one of those quick elven Dps supports that can get in a lot of additional damage if someone else is taking the hits. I don't know how effective those could ever be against any cleric. And indeed, the trap miracle essentially counters my style of play quite well, but it also completely destroys characters like allurana's style of play.

Delia also makes an important distinction between front line and support. Anyone who plays geas for a few months can see that some characters are better for taking the hits and some chars should -stay back-! Unless you don't mind dying (coughaturshuscough)

I feel like shaos should definitely be buffed up in PVP. the martial arts should be more scary than they are to big fighters like me or clerics. If I ever fought a shaolin in real PVP, they may be able to save themselves a few strikes before I tore them apart taking almost no damage. Armour stops all of the arts it seems like. Thats why they are effective in PVE, greenskins don't wear good armour. And they get amazing bonuses against undead. Far more effective that any Crusader and probably rivals or betters the ability of the clerics of taniel to kill them at high martial arts levels.

I still am a firm believer that things like tackle and such should just flat out cancel a miracle that requires gestures. Imagine casting something and getting tackled by a football player? How the hell would you continue casting?

Then ferranifer raises a good point as well. If luminier had his choice he would bring a friend with good missile to support him. I would bring a shao against undead. i would bring a cleric against something no one can kill right away. etc etc the situation changes based on what you need so everyone serves a purpose but it is not always immediately useful in all situations.

As for clerics, I think we all agree that if it was easier to interrupt their casts they would be far less formidable.

[Allurana]

Though I do feel like Allurana falls into more of a support role than a front line fighter. Shes one of those quick elven Dps supports that can get in a lot of additional damage if someone else is taking the hits. I don't know how effective those could ever be against any cleric. And indeed, the trap miracle essentially counters my style of play quite well, but it also completely destroys characters like allurana's style of play.

Delia also makes an important distinction between front line and support. Anyone who plays geas for a few months can see that some characters are better for taking the hits and some chars should -stay back-! Unless you don't mind dying (coughaturshuscough)

I think what Delia said earlier was pretty accurate:

A light armour non-guild character not packing a long weapon, missile weapon or a twohander is basically a non-combatant in PvP.

My character can be brutally effective in PvE, but feels rather unimpressive in PvP, unless I just outclass the other person completely. I think many dual-wielding Shaos, Thieves, Rangers, and guildless probably feel the same way.

On the other hand, I picked up a two-handed weapon that I barely used before to test the perspective of a character similar to mine, and already felt twice as effective with only half the skill proficiency. So, it does feel like there's a power/performance/efficiency/whatever discrepancy between dual-wielding and two-handing.

The problem with elves though is that chainmail generally isn't practical for them, and it happens to probably be the best balanced armor (both leather and plate have some rather large disadvantages IMO).

[Aslak]

The problem with elves though is that chainmail generally isn't practical for them, and it happens to probably be the best balanced armor (both leather and plate have some rather large disadvantages IMO).

I do not think chain armour is any better then the other two types of armour, it a lot depends on the situation you are in and what you are fighting.
Chain armour will never shine in any special field, but it will more or less work always.
Leather armours are great if there is no more then 1 foe hitting you, there it beats chain easily and we do not need to speak about plates.
Plate armours, specially combined with shields, are great if there are masses of enemies hitting on you, specially if they ain't using twohanders. But plate armours are no good on 1v1, even against onehanders not as you barely will be able to hit yourself at all.

[mazarmormuk]

something i wanted to add earlier and fits now very well.

i completely agree to aslak.
going to 1v1, i would never use a shield, neither heavy armour
both shield and heavy armour are too easy to penetrate with the right weapons and give too much weight to dodge and parry

[isengoo]

I think people overrate Heaven's Fire. Berserk on the enemy team leader spells death for them all.

[luminier]

Yeah Berserk is a really amazing miracle with huge ability to end a team immediately, basically takes the target out of the fight too.

If you had a fight on equal ground and just berserked each member of the opposing team, the fight is over pretty quickly in a win for the Asralite team.

going 1v1, you would be a fool to not use a shield and just turtle up in mood defend. Fighting a warrior on even footing is pretty well a death sentence. You are doing what they do best. turtling and using miracles to lower their hp makes the fight so much easier for you.

Heavens fire is pretty flashy, but thats about it. If you have a client that is able to extinguish quickly it isn't as bad.

the new Bolt miracle is amazing. Down from 22 seconds to 16 seconds and does extra damage to really good karma and really bad karma? It's amazingly powerful. Probably the strongest miracle in the game.

[Aslak]

Bolt is only good for the first fight, after that your own karma is ruined so much that it does not do any damage anymore.

[Aslak]

Beside, Asrals indeed seems stronger on the paper then other cleric guilds, at least 1on1. But Asrals have little to offer to teammates, while Taniels and crusaders boost their entire team heavily.
Sathos are playing on an entire different league anyways, at least once they bring undeads in.

[mazarmormuk]

i am having some trouble discussing the details while not creating a platform
of detailled information about weak points and advantages of guild internals and game mechanics..

today i thought about it again and my thought was..
wait..there is a person complaining about OP that sets 10% crits, one crit in ten hits, which is close to the meaning ten encounters is one death, riding on a unicorn and having watchtowers everywhere finding the enemies for him..he can take his time to prepare, ride from whereever in no time to his enemy and simply attack..standard hit and a special..makes 5 encounters one death..

additionally that char shouts stuff i got no idea of its effects, but maybe, to have a verified comparison, the game effects of the crusader shouts should be listed here..please do not forget to add your guilds weapons, weapon- and armourstats, and the weak point would be great

[luminier]

i am having some trouble discussing the details while not creating a platform
of detailled information about weak points and advantages of guild internals and game mechanics..

today i thought about it again and my thought was..
wait..there is a person complaining about OP that sets 10% crits, one crit in ten hits, which is close to the meaning ten encounters is one death, riding on a unicorn and having watchtowers everywhere finding the enemies for him..he can take his time to prepare, ride from whereever in no time to his enemy and simply attack..standard hit and a special..makes 5 encounters one death..

additionally that char shouts stuff i got no idea of its effects, but maybe, to have a verified comparison, the game effects of the crusader shouts should be listed here..please do not forget to add your guilds weapons, weapon- and armourstats, and the weak point would be great

If you think Crusaders are OP, make your case in a new topic! I will be happy to answer any/all questions!

[ganandorf]

today i thought about it again and my thought was..
wait..there is a person complaining about OP that sets 10% crits, one crit in ten hits, which is close to the meaning ten encounters is one death, riding on a unicorn and having watchtowers everywhere finding the enemies for him..he can take his time to prepare, ride from whereever in no time to his enemy and simply attack..standard hit and a special..makes 5 encounters one death..

Forgot to include has a billion allies.

[luminier]

Stop derailing my thread!