Geas

vurdijak wrote:Ok Herst, then everyone in Geas except you (and presumably Tessa) at that time was using 'weak' reasoning. Since I don't remember you (or Tessa) coming out against it back then

My opinion of backstab has always been what it was. But when Tessa spent her career as a Lilith-loving lawless thief/rogue, why wouldn't she use thief/rogue tactics to accomplish her dirty work? She wasn't really a 'lawful' character until recently, during which she stopped using thief skills.

you are just as complicite in creating a world in which backstab was both honorable and brave according to Asral.

What Asralites did was their business. Tessa never contributed to Asral dogma.

Hopefully in the present and in the future, you will be kind enough to demonstrate to the entire playerbase where their reasoning is flawed when it is actually happening rather than several years later (when no one remembers you uttering a peep about it).

Again, my opinion of backstab has never changed. I thought it was a universal belief that thieves were sneaky snakey bastards, rather than noble warriors. And I do believe the changes made in the move reveal how the wizards feel about the move, too.

Anyway, I still stand by the point that the rationalisations made about backstab are done not because the move is honorable, brave, acceptable, normal, or so forth, but rather because it's a unrivaled, superpowered move that until recently had no consequences or repercussions for using.

it's a unrivaled, superpowered move that until recently had no consequences or repercussions for using

not really. Its a misconception that backstabbing is unrivaled. Maby against npcs... but pvp gore is just as effective.

And the honor in backstabbing.... take an elf who sneaks into 3 sathos clergy. He backstabs one. As ganon mentioned, that's not dishonorable, that's brave and smart. But of course, to me gore works just as fine, but gore to me is just like backstabbing rp wise. I cant get over thinking Delmon is jumping out of the shadows and drilling someone in the stomach when I use gore from hiding.

Maby, again, the "intention" of the move was for dishonorable purposes, but in the end I guess it doesnt matter.

And isengorn has a point. What dictated Asral the god of honor?
Go ahead Herst, call it common sense

Just where you say its unrivaled and superpower, it's not quite unrivaled and superpowered if you think of it, for it to be effective it depends on around 5 skills.

hide
sneak
knife
backstab
and enemy awareness,
if the enemy has high awareness your screwed, when was the last time that you guys saw backstab used effectively in PVP combat, I was backstabbed once by alamar As a noob, sure you can say Gen uses it but when was the last time he backstabbed you?, all those thieves use it, but the use of backstab in PVP situations is definitely dropping.

Unrivaled:
Gore (tbh gore isnt that powerful, easily countered)
Mount Charges (try getting charged by lumi on a unicorn, and see how long you last).

Delmon wrote:Its a misconception that backstabbing is unrivaled.

No, it's not.

As ganon mentioned, that's not dishonorable, that's brave and smart.

Bravery generally suggests you do something that most would be too scared to do. I would say facing someone head-to-head on even ground requires a little more nads than stabbing them unawares in the back.

And isengorn has a point. What dictated Asral the god of honor?

The Asral Warclergy. Including Avatars, whom I assume would be the expert on Asral.

when was the last time that you guys saw backstab used effectively in PVP combat

Lurker BBQs. Usually you'd be dead in seconds. But we don't have Izydors or Yoshimos around anymore.

Also, I'm not sure where the subject switched to PvP only. I was talking about training/hunting. Backstab lets people fight a ton of mobs that they normally wouldn't stand a fair chance against without it.

Gore is powerful, but let's look at a few things:

Gore has a long cool-down time between successive uses. Backstab cool down usually only lasts as long as it takes to leave the room, stop hunting, and sneak back in.

Gore also requires you to have at least 60 impale, amongst other things. Backstab is nearly good to go with minimal skills, against things like tcharks and ogres, which are quite great for training (and pathetically easy to kill with backstabs). It's not like hide/sneak/backstab are hard to improve, either.

From personal experiences, gore seems to have a tendency to miss a lot more than backstab against mobs.

Gore has a cooldown time after wielding your weapon. Backstab is pretty instant.

Gore causes a cooldown time for other specials. You can use almost any other special immediately after backstab (ie; bodycheck).

I'm pretty sure backstab to the neck causes more bloodloss than a gore can. A skilled backstabber can probably do just as much damage, if not more.

Charge is nice in pvp, sure. Though in general, it's not widely used for a few reasons:

A warhorse needed (some 200+ gold).
The horse needs to be tamed.
You need a rider lance (which usually breaks after each use).
You need at least decent experience in the following skills: animal handling, riding, mounted combat, spear.
Horses can't go everywhere. There's a fair share of hunting grounds they can't enter.
If the horse dies or you run out of lances, you're out of commission for a while.

So, alright. Charge is a determining factor in pvp. And gore can potentially be the same. Backstab is not so much. But how many people actually used backstab for intents of pvp, as opposed to npc mob killing?

The Asral Warclergy. Including Avatars, whom I assume would be the expert on Asral.

Not disagreeing, but I just want to clarify that this isn't dictated anywhere by code. Different Avatar -> different take on honor, which could lead to backstabbing be OK in Asral's eyes. As I said before, it's up to the players to interpret.

Backstab can miss? Since when?

Backstab does not really miss, but you can botch your sneak after typing the backstab command.

Backstab has its drawbacks and it really is very difficult to pull off to lethal effect in PvP. It is a specialist move - it may work for a non-specialist against NPCs, but like heavily armoured fighters with criticals on two-handed weapons and clerics with miracles, specialization is required for effectiveness. Because of that and because of the reputation/karma balance, I do not think it is in the least bit overpowered.

Especially if you want to go against high INT&AWA targets you literally need to sneak around naked on a moonless night.

Female elves get the advantage there. Even if they're caught, they still get a distraction bonus.

Luminier's killed beautiful naked vampire elves, what makes you think Tessa stands a chance?

Anyways, I don't really know why we are talking about backstab anymore. It's fine honestly. Everyone just needss to understand things have changed from the past and now it's not accepted as common technique. Use it if you wish and Roleplay w/e happens. Just like -anything- else you do in this MUD.

tessa wrote:Female elves get the advantage there. Even if they're caught, they still get a distraction bonus.

You mean a "roflmao" bonus?

Not sure how tough are NPC backstabbers, but 4 hits including 2 crits took a young char wearing chain armours took it to "not in a good shape" with controllable bleeding. I'm sure any experienced chars in medium armours is close to impossible to backstab really effectively. /as long the backstabber has no super-duper twohanded (sic!) backstab weapon/

If you're talking about the darkelves in the Arborean sewers, they're fairly weak.

I've backstabbed Jezz twice with delmon and a mithril or steel/ never figured out which, and it only got him "hurt" at best.

And Delmon's not really a weak elf

Also, plate armors have a decent chance to completely absorb the damage.

I saw Blizt backstabbed by an elf (after backstabb was downgraded) while Blizt wore plate armours. He was taken to Not in a good shape and bleeding heavily.
He was down to vbs from the bloodloss quite quickly. Before he could aid, another backstabb killed him.

If your backstabbs suck, its probably because your skill sucks.

maby blizt did not have good constitution?

I said it was a chance I think it's a 50/50 shot, or it might be based on your heavy armour skill, I dunno. It's still better than nothing. Token references to one occurrence help your argument they do not.

lol, I dont think any of us know exactly which is better. Gore or backstab, so I'm putting skill lvl 60 gore equal to lvl 60 backstab, which I have had both.

Delmon wrote:maby blizt did not have good constitution?

A dwarf with around epic constitution maybe.

For Isengorn:

You sound like the only person who has backstabbed you are the darkelves in the sewers, since the only time I have a seen a backstab absorbed on the MUD has been there. It was already pointed out how weak those darkelves are.

Yes, I have seen many people backstab. I listed that incident because of the extreme damage it did. I also saw it happen with maybe just a little less damage donr many times after and before that.

There are other mentions about how powerful backstab is on the forum. Perhaps check them out.

I have seen a darkelf kill a few Crusaders from a backstab then a quick attack after.