Geas

What does it matter if we pull out of Iraq? Besides some high concept idea of "honor" or "integrity" (both of which went out the window when there were no WMDs), there is no benefit to staying. It can turn into the next Darfur for all I care, so long as America isn't spending x billion dollars a month there instead of x billion dollars a month in America. Also, the phrase 'militarily weaker'...please explain this one to me.

People say if we pull out, they'll attack us. But I think they'll be too busy attacking each other, and staying in there doesn't do anything but keep them stunted at the cost of our own well-being. And we can't keep doing it until the end of the time. And the longer we stay there, the longer they'll hate us, fueling this "omg they'll get us" thing.

I'm kind of hoping the Republicans don't regroup anytime soon. But we can see how the first 4-8 years go first. The RNC has done a good job brain-washing everyone into thinking the Democrats are the antichrists of the new world.

to us in Canada a party is a party. theres never any hidden agendas, just nothing ever gets done up here. and everyone lies, i suspect it's the same in the states.

Delmon wrote:Obama is:

Tax the rich, give to the poor
corporation regulation
socialized health care supporter
big government, "lets create more gov. organizations!"
Im african american! (even though he's half african american, if that)
A president with the most liberal voting history.

Oh well, he only has max 8 years. 8 years for republicans to regroup...

Hmm.. sound like a well suited socialdemocrat to me

Tax the rich, give to the poor

socialized health care

It's just like with the Ferengi on Star Trek, nobody there wants to stop the exploitation of workers, because everyone dreams of becoming an exploiter himself one day. This applies to the americans who don't want to be taxed after achieving their american dream. Yet why they do not accept health care during the long way to getting rich, I really don't know.

Waiting before getting a broken hand to the hospital, or the need to treat a broken arm oneself (both are recent examples I saw) might just as well be the end to ones american dream, and something that should not happen in a modern society.

So, even if heath care was a legacy of communism (which it isn't), it would be a damn good one, eh?

Olrane wrote:Amen. If you believe in the great jihadist conspiracy, then the worst thing to do is to continue to give them fuel.

Read the Quaran. That is what they believe. So all you have to believe is that they believe what they say they believe.

Where is the conspiracy in that?

I agree though. Staying in Iraq isn't solving anything. Ignore the pleas of those that beg us to stay, and listen to those that tell us to get out.

We can leave, and let them commit mass genocide. Then no one will have to worry about the issue again. I am not being sarcastic.

I'd just like to remind people posting to this thread that there are people playing this MUD who live/have lived in Afghanistan, Iraq, other parts of the Middle-East or for example former Yugoslavia.

Not saying that this is the only reason why expressing wishes for a genocide on this forum might be a bad idea.

Herst wrote:Read the Quaran

Read the Bible

@Amrat

I have read both. Have you? If so, you would notice the 111-164 Suras (depending on how it is interpreted) in the Quaran referring to "Jihad" or "holy war". As well as the great rewards for all those who enter into the Jihad. Pointing out that this book references this, is a response to Olrane calling it a conspiracy. Also, considering that someone commented on the Christian beliefs as "bigotry" it seemed acceptable that pointing out the Quaran is full of aggressive literature should be perfectly tolerable.

I did not express a wish for it to happen. I stated that it is what would happen.
It has always happened in that region, and always will. As long as there are men, there will be wars. I was simply saying that we will not be able to stop it.

As well as I have lived in the Middle East myself.

Also, I believe the best thing America or any other country in general can do is protect their borders. If you increase security at the borders and focus your effort and attentions there instead of elsewhere you do not have to worry about being attacked. Sure, plenty of people have slipped through already with the very relaxed border restrictions already but if we strengthen the security at the borders, be more selective about who we let into the country and screen them more thoroughly then we shouldn't have a problem.

Then we wouldn't have to worry about the paranoia of "they will get us"

Herst wrote:You say any religion could be accepted as long as they did not act upon it in an evil manner? If you follow and evil religion, you are evil. If you fail to see this, I am sorry. Another reason an intervention had to be done. A lot more can be said about "I am a Lilithian but I am not evil because I don't act on it!" as well, but I won't even justify that with a response.

Is this how you feel about Islam?

No. That is why it was on the forum for the MUD and not the OOC forum.
That is why it said Lilithian and not Islam.

You already pointed out the "Christian Bigotry" on this forum, without anything following to back up your statement. I simply stated a fact, one that is easily realized if you make an informed opinion.

It seems you are the biased one, forming an opinion without an investigation.

To answer your question again, No.

Ok, just making sure

For the record, I do not deny that there are jihadists, but I see it as a radical aggressive political group influence by religion rather than a religious political group. Just as there have been in Christianity many times as well.

Religions are great motivators for violence. So are occupations. I don't know which we should really be blaming here, especially since much of the justification for our occupations lies in the evangelist aspect of Christianity.

Yes, I am biased against religion and biased against war. If we handled a terrorist threat in a small special forces kind of way instead of the invasion and occupation of unrelated states, I would be far happier.

Also, Herst, I do think that there are a large number of Americans who do feel that to be Arabian or to be Muslim is inherently evil, with no further justification needed. It's really stomach-churning. The whole "Barack Hussein Obama" deal would not have had as much effect without this basic assumption.

I am slightly biased as well.
I have a quarter sized scar on the right side of my neck from a bullet.

Anyways, there are always different groups of people in the same religion, as someone pointed out before. There are those Christians who take the Bible literally, some who do not. Those that do not take it literally may considered non-Christians by the others. The same goes for the Quaran. Some Muslims take it word for word as something they must do, others do not. Some of them are the religion because they are raised to be that way.

I do not think all Muslims are Jihadists. In fact I believe only a small percentage are. Two of my best friends that I worked with over seas were Muslim. I was actually at work with them when 9/11 happened. I believe that the majority of Muslims outside of the Middle East do not even really believe in "Holy Wars" or "Jihad". It is the ones that assimilate in with those in foreign urban areas that cause the problems.

There are a lot of things that happen that we never hear about. I know of an incident that happened in Sembach Germany that should have made national news, but I don't remember ever hearing anything about it. So, I believe small special forces units handle a lot more than you could ever realize.

I believe everything the USA does is strictly political though, without any religious influence. They just use religion as their excuse.

Read the Quaran

You'd be surprised how similar quaran and bible are, they basically tell the same stories.

You'd be surprised how similar quaran and bible are, they basically tell the same stories.

They support two completely different religions and contain strong differences.

Grindel wrote:

Read the Quaran

You'd be surprised how similar quaran and bible are, they basically tell the same stories.

That is like trying to say that "The Three Little Pigs" and "Little Red Riding Hood" are the same story, because they both contain a wolf.

The Bible (Or Torah in this case, since it is mostly all Old Testament) and the Quaran have the same basic starting points at times, but have differences in them that change the complete meaning of the story.

The creation story, the story of Noah, The story of Joseph, The story of Abraham, and the story of Moses all have small differences that if read as absolute scriptures with divine meaning that can influence your reasoning in totally different ways.

When it comes to the time period of Jesus and after, the two have completely opposite meanings.

I don't think they're completely opposite. I think they're equally invalid

All religion is around 90% bullshit, 10% common sense, That is why you become an athiest. (Do not quote me on my figures as they are also bullshit)

Religion is used by people to justify life, give their life, one where they are born, live, and die, purposelessly some sort of purpose.

Let people believe in what they want to believe, If a muslim shoots a christian for no reason, It's a win win situation. The muslim gets to slay his enemy, the christian gets to go to heaven.

All religion is around 90% bullshit, 10% common sense, That is why you become an athiest. (Do not quote me on my figures as they are also bullshit)

Religion is used by people to justify life, give their life, one where they are born, live, and die, purposelessly some sort of purpose.

Let people believe in what they want to believe, If a muslim shoots a christian for no reason, It's a win win situation. The muslim gets to slay his enemy, the christian gets to go to heaven.