Karma and neutral gods

[lanyara]

Does anyone know if Gwen dislikes someone who spends to charity again and again (and does nothing else) due to having a too good aura suddenly?

Gwen has no active clergy (ok) and I know of only one miracle so far which directly takes karma into account (which is smite, it is not possible to request it if your karma is way off), and ... well, perhaps two miracles, hword (I don't remember if you can use it when your aura is bad, but hword affects believers of opposing deities)

[Zehren]

[quote="lanyara"]Does anyone know if Gwen dislikes someone who spends to charity again and again (and does nothing else) due to having a too good aura suddenly?[quote]

I'm not certain I understand what you mean.
If your question is whether Gwen dislikes someone who gives very much to charity, and thus gets a white aura akin to those Taniel favours, and you're then told your karma is bad, I would say that Gwen wouldn't dislike this, but that she would rather like it more if someone's sum of actions, karma, would be ...Was it misty?

[lanyara]

I am asking primarily because of miracles (which don't exist for Gwen, ok).

Taniel already will not grant at least one miracle (smite) and this is based on aura. Which has quite a big implication if you ever have a cleric with a bad aura and the god ignores you ...

The question is however more meant in regards to the karma of the cleric in question. For instance, would Gwen have this same limitation in regards to karma of the cleric, or not? As in, deny miracles?

[Zehren]

Now that I have read the title of this thread, which I somehow managed not to earlier, I'd say Zhakrin would either be very strict in regard to karma, or not have any restrictions at all, since both would seem balanced. Only those who are truly balanced = balance, everyone, thus a mixture of evil and good = balance?
Asral would perhaps be slightly lenient, and likely care more for faith than karma. (Perhaps an asral cleric could answer how this works...)
I would imagine Gwen to be quite lenient, but not wholly lenient. She welcomes sinners, et cetera, but I think Gwen wouldn't wish the sinners to continue sinning. After all, if sins are... valued as virtue, then they are not sins. One might also stand too far from Gwen's principles to have one's calls for miracles answered if you have the same karma as someone who murders and eats babies as a morning practise.

*crosses fingers, hopes he has (subjectivelly, at least,) managed to answer the question in question*

[lanyara]

One might also stand too far from Gwen's principles to have one's calls for miracles answered if you have the same karma as someone who murders and eats babies as a morning practise.

Gwen disliking murderers and baby eaters is fine, but I am only interested in charity.

If donating to charity makes karma go super white eventually, and Gwen would dislike on that, then I think this would be extremely odd. It would mean that Gwen would want of you to donate not too much whereas Taniel and Evren would appreciate this more (due to karma), and I would find this just peculiar.

[Zehren]

One might also stand too far from Gwen's principles to have one's calls for miracles answered if you have the same karma as someone who murders and eats babies as a morning practise.

Gwen disliking murderers and baby eaters is fine, but I am only interested in charity.

If donating to charity makes karma go super white eventually, and Gwen would dislike on that, then I think this would be extremely odd. It would mean that Gwen would want of you to donate not too much whereas Taniel and Evren would appreciate this more (due to karma), and I would find this just peculiar.

If your aura is pure white, you only spend time, help, care for (or try to) goodies.
As Gwen loves all, being so polarised would mean you are selective and don't, at least, try to do the same (as Gwen. Gwen often gets rejected.) Trying to help is a good action in itself, which is why Gwen favour slightly good auras, and not truly balanced onces.
Charity = good
Pearl white auras = not-so good
Of course, Gwen loves all and wouldn't dislike someone for having a not-so good pearl white aura.

[lanyara]

If your aura is pure white, you only spend time, help, care for (or try to) goodies. As Gwen loves all, being so polarised would mean you are selective and don't, at least, try to do the same (as Gwen. Gwen often gets rejected.)

How could charity be considered selective?
(Btw it can not be that the aura defines the action before. The actions before defined the aura.)

Trying to help is a good action in itself, which is why Gwen favour slightly good auras, and not truly balanced onces.

What does "slightly good" mean? Less excessive charity?

Charity = good
Pearl white auras = not-so good

So with charity alone one can never reach pearl white auras?

Of course, Gwen loves all and wouldn't dislike someone for having a not-so good pearl white aura.

Well I don't think Gwen really can like everyone. She can't like those who kill Denma can she really ... so there must already be some kind of off limits. Plus she seems to show the same animosity against Asral ... hate and anger and madness.

But I'd really like to know what aura one gets by only donating to charity alone. Guess I'll have to find out eventually in-game!

[Zehren]

How could charity be considered selective?

Have you donated to the beggar in Asador, the city of evil?

What does "slightly good" mean? Less excessive charity?

Gwen is a child of the twilight, and represents balance, albeit not of the same degree as Zhakrin. Due to her aspects, which are mainly good, (I have a hard time seeing how love and beauty, for instance, are evil. Perhaps obsessive, perhaps greedy and jealous, but not evil,) she is thus a sort of slightly good but also balanced deity.

I imagine helping and caring for everyone would include helping and aiding evil ones, given the chance, and aiding evil people is considered an evil action...

Balance, good intentions, perhaps evil consequences, slightly good?

So with charity alone one can never reach pearl white auras?

You can. With very much charity, you can.

Well I don't think Gwen really can like everyone. She can't like those who kill Denma can she really ... so there must already be some kind of off limits. Plus she seems to show the same animosity against Asral ... hate and anger and madness.

I think the animosity against Asral is more a clash of aspects than any hate and anger from Gwen's side. If the IC book about their animosity is considered correct, I imagine Gwen was thrown into a fit of rage, which lasted for a while, before forgiving her brethren.

Gwen loves everything and everyone, even the
sinners.There is no sin she can't forgive you

Killing Denma, eating babies, et cetera, are all sins in good deities' eyes, of which Gwen is one. Thus she doesn't approve of those actions, albeit she can and will forgive the person who committed them. She does care for everyone. (The fact she even tries to care for Sathonys, despite Sathonys answering with naught but hate should prove this...)

But I'd really like to know what aura one gets by only donating to charity alone. Guess I'll have to find out eventually in-game!

That is simple to answer. You get a better aura than the one you already had. The more often, higher amount, and for how long you donate = better and better aura. Your aura can become pearl white and perfect in Taniel's eyes by doing nothing but donating to charity. Of course, if you committ evil actions at the same time, those evil actions might easily overshadow the charity...

[lanyara]

How could charity be considered selective?
Have you donated to the beggar in Asador, the city of evil?

Didn't even know there is a beggar. Not that it would matter, I would have no idea how to enter Asador other than by ships - which is also a bit odd. If it is such an evil and chaotic town filled with zombies, why would anyone want to visit it ...

Is donating to beggars in "evil cities" an evil action?

[Phelan]

Is donating to beggars in "evil cities" an evil action?

Not sure if it is considered an evil action, but it will improve your reputation there.

People at Asador refused to talk to Phelan after sacrificing some giants, apparently it has a negativ effect on your reputation. Therefore I had to start donating coins to the beggar. It doesn't make much sense IC, but the reputation system never worked quite well in that area, I had similar problems in the past.

[per]

People at Asador refused to talk to Phelan after sacrificing some giants, apparently it has a negative effect on your reputation. Therefore I had to start donating coins to the beggar. It doesn't make much sense IC, but the reputation system never worked quite well in that area, I had similar problems in the past.

And here I thought values were inverted in Asador, so that fear was a much more powerful motivator than being nice (i.e.,weak).

[lanyara]

It doesn't make much sense IC

Agreed.

My favourite example ... greedy characters who donate to beggars (both due to reputation and karma increase) ... how greedy can you still be when you donate to charity hehe ...

[Zehren]

It doesn't make much sense IC

Agreed.

My favourite example ... greedy characters who donate to beggars (both due to reputation and karma increase) ... how greedy can you still be when you donate to charity hehe ...

Good reputation = seeming more trustworthy = easier to trade and accomplish other things legally = more profit.

[lanyara]

I think the animosity against Asral is more a clash of aspects than any hate and anger from Gwen's side.

Whether it is "hate" or "anger" - Gwen will ultimately care about Asral (as deity).
I'd really like to have each deity given a specific personally, and work from that point, rather than lower it down to aspects solely (which I find very much OOC aspects ... are gods in GEAS without unique personality, ambitions, goals?)

What I don't quite understand is how the aspects of war can be so different from death. I mean, if you go on the battlefield for glory, and slaughter folks... then the net result is fitting to death just as well. But Gwen doesn't dislike the end result (death) as much as war itself? What if everyone would use the blunt side of the weapon and have "wars" like that where'd you just put people unconscious ... but you don't kill them ... would Gwen dislike that more or less ...

But I think, the real 3 questions I was having here, trying to figure out .. are these ...

- Does Gwen dislike super holy auras? (pure white)
- Does donating to beggars eventually give your char a super holy aura?
- Does Gwen then dislike those who do extreme charity because they will end up with a holy aura?

[matusalem]

I don't know a whole lot about Gwen, but I will try to answer what I know. Donating to beggars will give you a white karma. Yes. The more you give, the whiter it gets. As for Gwen disliking a very white karma, I've gotten mixed reactions when I ask Denma about my karma. With my very white karma Evrenite, she growls and yells at me. With my equally very white karma unaffiliated character, she merely encourages him to do better. I doubt that's helpful.

[lanyara]

Every bit of information helps!

[Desiderea]

I'd also still like to see a way to tell whether your karma is too good or too bad with neutral gods. Denma keeps telling me that my karma is good but not quite perfect and to keep doing good things, but I wonder... what if my karma is actually too good?

And what might make sense for Denma to say to someone whose aura is too good? Something about keeping a balance maybe? Don't get too carried away, or remember to take time for yourself too?

[Zehren]

- Does Gwen dislike super holy auras? (pure white)
- Does donating to beggars eventually give your char a super holy aura?
-Does Gwen then dislike those who do extreme charity because they will end up with a holy aura?

-Does Gwen dislike super holy auras? (pure white)
Given Gwen loves everyone, a part of her personality, I would say she favours super holy auras less than misty ones. As in super holy auras = okay, misty auras = yay!

-Does donating to beggars eventually give your character a super holy aura?
Yes. Donate much and often enough, avoid evil thingies. *cough* borrowing *cough* and you will have such an aura.

-Does Gwen then dislike those who do extreme charity because they will end up with a holy aura?[/quote]
To get and stay with a super holy aura, you would practically have to avoid anyone with even the slightest of bad karma. (I think.)
I would say this would be what Gwen would favour less, while she would not dislike charity in itself. Does this make sense?

What I don't quite understand is how the aspects of war can be so different from death. I mean, if you go on the battlefield for glory, and slaughter folks... then the net result is fitting to death just as well. But Gwen doesn't dislike the end result (death) as much as war itself? What if everyone would use the blunt side of the weapon and have "wars" like that where'd you just put people unconscious ... but you don't kill them ... would Gwen dislike that more or less ...

Asral is god of war and death... War breeds anger, hate, et cetera, while death can be quite natural?
I think this is where personality kicks in. There's a book about Gwen and Asrals animosity in Elvandar...
Of course, Gwen can forgive anything, which leads to the conclussion that she either have not gotten over that incident yet (least sense),
Asral refused her forgiveness (more sense), or that it is the characters faith which lessens, and not Gwen's favour. Sadly, faith and favour
are measured as one.

I'd really like to have each deity given a specific personally, and work from that point, rather than lower it down to aspects solely (which I find very much OOC aspects ... are gods in GEAS without unique personality, ambitions, goals?)

Yes... As I see it, Gwen's personality is that of an all-loving, all-forgiving, hedonistic goddess of love, lust and beauty. Oh, and balance. Love, beauty, balance, as it states upon her altar.
Those could be called parts of her personality, aspects of her personality, or just aspects. (Could they not?)

All-loving: Gwen loves everyone and everything. There is a slight lack of logic when it comes to asral and asralites here, but
this could be explained that Asral for example reacts negatively to her attempts, while other deities, Sathonys, only refuses her attempts.
The difference between 'Smiles coldly and states evilly: No.' and 'CHAAARGEEEE!!! ATTACK!!! DIEEEEEEEEE!'

All-forgiving: This is tightly tied to the all-loving part. If you love everyone, you would be able to forgive everyone, no?
This also goes to show that she is a welcoming goddess. Who tries to be nice, instead of nasty, no?

Hedonisticism: Her fruit speaks for itself, and she does not seem to trouble herself with many worries?

Goddess: Gender. Most people have a gender.

Love: One of the aspects she is deity of.

Lust: Byproduct of former aspect.

Beauty: Golden fruit. Golden tree huts. Golden, golden, statues and pretty dresses.

Balance: all-loving, all-forgiving, aiding all. Balanced. No?

*crosses his fingers and hopes this makes sense*