Clergies/clans

[Desiderea]

So... are we any closer to getting clergies/clans for the unrepresented deities? I know Zehren has been working on developing a clergy of Gwen. What all has to be done to actually get this into play?

Also, I would love to see some sort of shamans or other clan devoted to Lilith. It would be nice to see some more evil out there besides Sathonites. And currently, it seems like being a Lilithian is rather hard, plus they have no guild to back them up, making it even less of an appealing choice. I'm all for diversity and I'd like to see some more options available to encourage players to take their characters down other paths.

[Zehren]

Zehren is no immortal

For progress in regards to Gwen, go here, Desiderea:
http://wiki.geas.de/bin/view/Main/ProjectGoldenfruit
As has been told you and other Gwennies (I think?) we are currently working towards a cult (I submit ideas, yay!) , since Abharsair stated that "current plans are to better the current guilds, rather than make new ones to draw people into. (not accurate quote, but accurate enough content)" Sadly.
Thus work is being done towards a cult (which will be rather fun to roleplay, I think We'll lack miracles, though ) but, as my slight bugging of Per has revealed, there are other projects a bit more important than this.
At the moment, I (at least) am waiting for Per to get in a Gwennie-mood

It is possibly, though, that eventually, in the future, if Gwennies become a large enough group, that, possibly, eventually, perhaps, we could get a clergy.
Thus (hopefully): Cult > converting > gentle nudging of admins > clergy

[Desiderea]

Bah, I was hoping to do some more nudging of imms... I know they're busy with other projects, but it still would be nice to see some new guilds so we have the full spectrum.

I just see it as most people gravitate towards the guilds and gods with the most power/biggest representation. If the other gods at least had a guild of their own, then it might entice more people to go a different route. Thus, making things more interesting.

[Zehren]

Bah, I was hoping to do some more nudging of imms... I know they're busy with other projects, but it still would be nice to see some new guilds so we have the full spectrum.

I just see it as most people gravitate towards the guilds and gods with the most power/biggest representation. If the other gods at least had a guild of their own, then it might entice more people to go a different route. Thus, making things more interesting.

We can cross our toes and hope the immortals change their minds

[arxthas]

I'm all for diversity and I'd like to see some more options available to encourage players to take their characters down other paths.

Right now though, the guilds that exist don't work very well. I think for example the Crusade has a clear goal, but most guilds are just there for historic reasons without this clear goal.

Personally, I would rather see reducing the existing guilds to what the playerbase can support. Then you could slowly expand in a controlled manner that makes sense..

Edit: Not just to what the playerbase can support, but also what makes sense in grand total. The game needs a theme that everything revolves around, not de-coupled, random guilds/characters where the primary focus is what armours they wear or weapons they wield.

[Delmon]

Right now though, the guilds that exist don't work very well.

That's a bit rough. What guild does not have a clear goal?

[arxthas]

All of them. Except for Crusaders. The Order might be good enough as well.

[Olrane]

All of them. Except for Crusaders. The Order might be good enough as well.

I disagree. Those are just a couple guilds which have a clear goal in a world where the religious war is the center of the game. But it isn't for many players, and the option to have characters with other goals is nice.

[Zehren]

Edit: Not just to what the playerbase can support, but also what makes sense in grand total. The game needs a theme that everything revolves around, not de-coupled, random guilds/characters where the primary focus is what armours they wear or weapons they wield.

Seeing as we are/have been plentiful of Gwennies wishing to create a clergy, IC, I think we were five or so at the peak, I think the playerbase can support a clergy for Gwen
Currently, we are three (I think? perhaps four? (more or less or somewhat sleepy folk) who would join the clergy once it came into existence.
That seems a decent, albeit not vast guild to me. I can think of four (more or less or somewhat active ) rangers off of my head, for instance.

I disagree with the game needing a major theme everything revolves around. Perhaps large parts, or quite a bit, but not which everything revolves around. If everything revolved around one great theme, (except roleplaying. That's an OOC theme ) things would be, as I see it, more limited than at current, and in the real world, there are several themes. That is natural, and realistic.

But yes, random guilds serve little purpose.
Clergies in general seem to have a purpose though; spreading of faith.

[isengoo]

I think if there were simply guild lines for all faiths, even if there were no specials or anything for those guilds, it would be a lot easier to do things as a group.

[lanyara]

Playing without miracles isn't much fun ... the main miracle at least as far as I am concerned with Lanyara would be the cure miracle. There simply is nothing better than to run around and cure pretty much EVERYONE!

I also think, personally, we should not wait until the clergies are all finished.

Simply start from now, give them one or two miracles perhaps, and allow players to go from there. The players will be able to provide sufficient description too, and at least you could have them continue from that point forward. Including a line gem.

Players could work from that point forward.

A central way to communicate would be also nice to have.

[ganandorf]

Guildlines for everyone would make being an evil character even more of a pain in the ass. One person sees you, everyone comes running. ITS A BAD IDEA.

I also find this topic very funny. Considering there's that other topic talking about how there's few wizard activity etc. etc. And now there's this topic, asking for more (unneeded) guilds. Because I do agree with arxthas somewhat, the current guilds aren't working well right now, probably due to a lull in the game, wait till things get back into groove before you make more demands. I disagree with arxthas when he says that only the crusaders have a set goal. Stupid statement, considering that the goal of every guild (besides the thieves, sathonites and order) have the goal to kill undeads, darkelves and shaolin. And the goal of the sathonites is to kill everyone else and cause chaos. Those seem like pretty set goals to me. I can't speak for the thieves or the order.

Lanyara your suggestion about adding all the faiths, with one or two miracles and a gem line, to me seems not a very good suggestion. One at a time, if at all, is the only way it will work.

TL;DR: Fix and improve what we have before adding more unneccessary things.

[lanyara]

Hmm... @Ganandorf....

If there are active players, who would like to try something (i.e. Gwen clergy), why would they have to wait before other guilds or parts of the game are fixed first? More so that fixing would take time, and resources are sparse, yet the players here could invest their time and help expand on the game. It just seems unfair.

In my opinion, the game should encourage active players, and even more so active roleplayers, without an immediate need to PvP or powertrain or continue from a point affected by players who no longer play.

I can tell you exactly what will happen if active players are not encouraged - they will fall into existing patterns and routines, or simply play other characters or even worse don't play at all, and then wonder why the game appears dull and static ... clans would just be one idea to have those who can not easily join guilds, especially new chars, be active, have a community feeling, or work from that point forward, rather than have to spend a LONG time before they can join a guild (or can't join certain guilds at all due to i.e. the guildleaders aren't active and such).

[arxthas]

I hardly think "kill undeads/darkelves" or "spread faith" etc is a guild goal. There is also nothing that prevents individual characters from setting goals.

Anyway. I'm not even going to start and develop that since I'm already outnumbered.. as usual.

[arxthas]

And the goal of the sathonites is to kill everyone else and cause chaos. Those seem like pretty set goals to me.

If you're serious about that..

[Zehren]

I also find this topic very funny. Considering there's that other topic talking about how there's few wizard activity etc. etc. And now there's this topic, asking for more (unneeded) guilds. Because I do agree with arxthas somewhat, the current guilds aren't working well right now, probably due to a lull in the game, wait till things get back into groove before you make more demands.

are the current guilds not working well due to coded reasons, or roleplaying reasons?

I would also like to point out that I agree with Lanyara; if several players wish for one organisation (cult/clergy), having them wait for years to upgrade everything else first (ie. fix current things first) hardly seems fair, efficient or benefitting.

And the goal of the sathonites is to kill everyone else and cause chaos. Those seem like pretty set goals to me.

Wouldn't those be Lilithian goals?
I always figured Sathonys was akin to a dictator:
A ruler, imposing order and his way, dominating and wishing all under himself.

[Delmon]

I do not find there to be much lacking in the guilds as they stand. Each player has the potential to add a bit to their guild, influence their "so-called-goals" and interpret the general code surrounding the guild a bit differently or the same as the characters before them. Even so, the guilds as they stand each have general goals.

The rangers protect the forest, help people out, ect. There is an in game mission statement that outlines what the rangers stand for.

The Shaolin have a sort of "mission to learn" everything and grow internally (correct me if I did not interpret the informations I have been presented about the guild correctly).

The Taniel clerics' goals are heavily influenced by the standing Archbishop. At this time, one of the main goals of the clerics, which was introduced or its importance was exemplified by Caelia, is to spread order (apparently good is derived from order though this is a simplified statement). In any case, there are goals for the clerics. Another goal is to get followers for Taniel. Preaching helps.

The asral clerics are suppose to please their god in war. The neutrality of asral would lead me, if I was the leader, to war against both the goodies and evils but that is just me. I also understand the balance between being cannon fodder for Crusaders and rping perfectly. On a side note, I personally enjoyed Moaglesh, the self-proclaimed prophet of asral, and all of his board notes. It is nice to see conflict within the clergy of asral, calling for more fighting action. They -are- warclerics.

I am sure Olrane could explain the thieves but it seems self evident to me.

The order is secret so unless someone has been in the order and wants to shed some light I have no idea what their goal is.

The coded information(prayers/ preaches/sacrifices) for the sathonys clerics offer much more information than simply kill and cause chaos, although the aspects of Sathonys are death, destruction, war, and chaos. The Clerics of Sathonys are allowed a bit of freedom to interpret the coded prayers, preach, miracles, and general will of their god. In my opinion, there should be at least SOME rational in serving a god of death, and I'm sure each cleric has their reason. Ganon is right though. The most superficial and simplistic goal for sathonys clerics to spread death and kill things.

[arxthas]

Those are not goals.. that is just individual character goals and general descriptions without any depth to it. Unless a huge revamp happened to those guilds in the last three years most guilds do not have goals.

[lanyara]

What kind of goal do the crusaders have? Fight evil.
They also have sufficient firepower to do precisely that. How could there be any mistake possible here ... do they have any flaws? That would hardly be possible. When you are out to remove evil, you can't make any mistake. Or at least you should not because others may suffer from your lack of strength.

Now compare this to a theoretical Gwen clergy. Imagine a miracle that disables other playercharacters from fighting at all for... let's say one OOC playing hour.

This would then be sufficient firepower to POWERPLAY a Gwen cleric who would go and try to pacify everything. "Make love not war".

Players would perhaps hate that or run away from Gwen clerics as a result... or kill them but so far it seems as if noone wants to kill them at all ...

Now, compare this to a Gwen "cleric" without any miracles.

This player would be left to only ROLEPLAY, and while roleplaying is fine, you need participative players for this style of play. (For PvP you also need other players too, of course)

You want to give other guilds the same leverage or a guild driven agenda?

Then, while thinking about guild goals, give them sufficient power to do precisely that as well so that they can achieve their "purpose". See the older notes by @stilgar.

Imagine something else - say, you have a goal for your guild, and you can not achieve this goal at all due to several reasons (not enough players in that guild, or they are not strong enough etc...). What should be done in this scenario? Remove the guild because they don't serve a purpose?

Just imagine if crusaders would have the same guild goal as they have right now, but not sufficient power to achieve precisely that (as in, no watchtowers, or watchtowers have flaws, their buffs also are less effective etc... etc.. or there simply are not enough players)

Suddenly they would have a guild goal which they could no longer achieve. Would they still have a purpose? Or is the purpose defined by their ability to achieve precisely that goal.

Clerics of Taniel and crusaders are perfectly setup to team, they also have a multitude of enemies which are easier for them to overcome (insects, undeads, Sathos - and yes, insects are easier for them than for anyone else)
Occasionally you see a Satho cause trouble for some time, but normally they will "idle back" to less activity pretty soon again.

I am fine if you want to say that other guilds need a specific purpose too, but which purpose precisely.

From a design point of view, especially the crusaders were designed very well, and have sufficient power to do precisely what their guild goal is. It is odd to then blame the other guilds for this or a lack of a "guild goal". How should players alone be able to change a guild goal?

Imagine if crusaders would SUDDENLY HUNT GOOD GUYS! Think about this shock!

Or ... imagine Gwen clerics spreading world peace - and disabling combat for EVERY other character while doing so!

Personally I think the focus should be on individual characters, and less so on guild agendas. Not everyone wants to participate in specific guild agendas anyway, plus it is often very difficult to join a guild right now too.

[lanyara]

Let me bring another examplke, the old thieves (or lurkers).

I never had a thief here but I guess quite a few players here played a thief here.

What guild agenda would the thieves have? Go and steal things, because that is what they are supposed to do? Hmmmmm. I would not agree with this.

I would think that such an agenda would be bad to have as well.

Not every guild needs to have a beset single-goal purpose.

Now if I would be a leader of a band of thieves, I would foremost do something which I think wasn't done - I would try to maintain good relations, and appear as a neutral guild. From behind the scenes, we all know that thieves would actually tend to be more evil, so I would then try and think about ways expanding my influence without pissing off too many people at the same time. I would also act as a "nice guy".

Right now this is not possible at all. Thieves are treated as evil by the game, you can't be or pretend to be a good or neutral thief really.

Guild agendas overruling individual characters can be really bad to have - you lose options that way.