Balance issues - PVP

[fernao]

Hello,

I am pretty new and pretty small still, so I say little to the high power pvp situation, but even I got the feeling the evil side currently is by far too dominant.
What strikes me most are the extremly strong and deadly undeads. They alone are able to kill most players I have seen so far and the leader of the Taniels (not sure how strong he really is) took about half an hour just to dispose a single revenant, with charging in and fleeing bleeding heavily a second later for about 50 times.
I am have no idea how much work it is to raise such powerful things, but seeing how often strong undeads are populating the streets, I think it cannot be that much work. In my opinion, it should be. If you raise such an undead, you would want to keep it to yourself, not just place it somewhere to wait for easy prey. Either those undeads should loose their unholy magic over time (if not close to their creator) and become weaker until they finally die (again) or it should be so much work to create them that they won't be wasted like this. The unicorns I think will have to be trained, so you will not see used them as a meatshield or to block a road just because they can. It would be too much work to get them back to old strength.

I think the undeads on streets, killing people without even a slight danger for the Satho himself, are the worst thing, at least from a newbie sight.

A couple of comments here...

Revenants are not meant to be taken down singlehandedly, at least not in a short time and not by everyone. I'd seen them die quite fast. Revenants stay until reboot or they get killed. Creating a revenant takes more time than building a crusader tower. And a manned tower can insta-kill people, haven't seen that by a lone revenant. And a revenants guards will vanish with time, see below.

Normal undeads will crumble after a certain amount of time has passed, regardless whether their creator is near or not around anymore. When their time is up, any room update will destroy them, without a fight starting.

Normally there are signs that a battle has taken place. Running around without regards after that happened can lead to death. Look ahead before you walk and apart from indoor rooms you can be almost100% safe from undeads. A hunting zombie is the only undead that you cannot anticipate this way.

[louis]

Noooo, no magic as the general counter. *flails arms*

Lol, agreed

[Delia]

Regarding the undead...also learning scouting and tracking saves lives. Generally speaking the non-revenant undead can be handled without any highbies around by a group of midlevel characters. Looking before leaping is the way. Also it is somewhat rare to see undead deathtraps(hopefully it remains so!), meaning there are undead positioned after an exit requiring a.special.command to enter such as 'climb slope'.

[adanath]

Alright,

So I slept for 30 minutes and got a call from work (not even) so it is what it is, I am up now unfortunately

All I have noticed is that people have neglected me in the past 30 minutes. I raised the most important point of everyone here (sorry the rest of you were just talking about meaningless stuff), and NOONE HAS SAID ANYTHING ABOUT IT!

Where is my damn boar ring!

On a less important note:

Regarding Delia's post above, I think it is a good thing there haven't been tons of traps where you can't see. That is one thing Crusaders and the good side can't do as effectively is essentially make death traps they don't have to be around for (well a watchtower can be a death trap) So I think the Sathos have shown wisdom in not doing so, as it really can discourage smaller characters or even midlevels or upper levels to have death traps everywhere so a credit to them.

You don't want to absolutely overkill any side. Even if you get mad at them, I haven't been and never have been, but it has happened to other people on both sides. It makes people stop playing. So I appreciate that this does seem to go into thought (IT doesn't apply for characters who walk knowingly or albeit a little dumbly into their own deaths multiple times)..

Sometimes wizards code things that are a boon, and fun and great roleplay, and it is up to the players to moderate themselves a little bit like in this instance. From what I have seen I think people do (I have very limited seeing over the course of a few days), it is just a good thing for everyone to keep in mind. If you completely destroy the evil or good side, people stop playing and that is less fun for everyone. It is hard to recruit new players to muds as most people lack imagination these days and will play nothing without graphics.

AS opposed to the "good ole days" all these new young whipper snappers just don't have imagination. I remember when I was a boy back in the day and we played with a piece of string and a wooden block and roleplayed with it. You young kids with all yer fancy ipo whatsits and fancy schmancy pants. Love and encourage the base you have. I'll try to remain part of that base

You can hate me though..just give me a boar ring!

and a dragon mount
and a new artifact weapon that is stronger than all the others
and a pet that stands in front row for me and is twice my strength
and a backup waldschrat mount that wields trees
oh and I would please like a boar ring
and a crossbow that shoots 10 arrows at once, that Adanath needs no skill for and has an instant reload time
Oh and..one of them ipo whatsits
Also, the boar population I feel like is declining and this is more serious
I would also like to become ethereal so my hits go straight through armours

I think all of that would finally put me on equal footing with others.

Stop being so selfish and give me my things people.

[Delia]

I'll have to have Delia research some fancy nature magic in the future and hand Adanath a wand of boar mind control.

[adanath]

I'll have to have Delia research some fancy nature magic in the future and hand Adanath a wand of boar mind control.

You my dear are a genius, finally some REAL progress here people.

This is what I am talking about, actual progress.

[anglachel]

I tend to agree with Luminier that - regardless wether all clerics guilds got the new miracle - the crusaders (and the other non-cleric-guilds) still face a "new disadvantage".

The trap miracle is only a "new disadvantage", then your only tactic is:

• 1. to rush in
  2. making a special and hopping for a crit
  3. If unlucky, run out before the other side can react
  4. Repeat with 1, till you get a crit

Then your tactic is go in, attack all that moves, then it not move wait till it moves and dance at the end on the corpse of your enemies it is even an advantage. The cleric has waste time and faith for a miracle that have no effect.

The deeper sense of trap mircale is not be a death trap, but make it bit harder to leave the combat. It should it not make impossible to flee. Then you sucessful run away, you should then think twice before you run in again. There is the danger that you must stay a bit longer as a second and get some hits.

May be it need still sone tuning, till it works in these sense.

[fernao]

I really like the notion of the miracle making "hit and run" a game of chance. You might get lucky and strike the cleric before the miracle takes effect, but then again, you might ge trapped and have to deal with your opponent(s).

And I also like the fact that you have to deal with the resources at hand, and not run/ride off to your shrine of choice, get insta healed and return while the other side barely had a chance to stop the bleedings.

And when the miracle is balanced, I hope it will just make roll a dice for any attempt to flee, sometimes you get lucky, sometimes not, nut no 100% chance to get trapped. And apart from the clerics, the mages have a spell that can achieve something similar with some different means and perks.

[adanath]

I tend to agree with Luminier that - regardless wether all clerics guilds got the new miracle - the crusaders (and the other non-cleric-guilds) still face a "new disadvantage".

The trap miracle is only a "new disadvantage", then your only tactic is:

• 1. to rush in
  2. making a special and hopping for a crit
  3. If unlucky, run out before the other side can react
  4. Repeat with 1, till you get a crit

Then your tactic is go in, attack all that moves, then it not move wait till it moves and dance at the end on the corpse of your enemies it is even an advantage. The cleric has waste time and faith for a miracle that have no effect.

The deeper sense of trap mircale is not be a death trap, but make it bit harder to leave the combat. It should it not make impossible to flee. Then you sucessful run away, you should then think twice before you run in again. There is the danger that you must stay a bit longer as a second and get some hits.

May be it need still sone tuning, till it works in these sense.

I like it, but I will say just in conjunction with bone spear, it makes it pretty impossible for me, but that's fine with me. Just saying in current state. I would say as a tshahark it just more affects me in that way, and I don't mind that at all. I am not the hit and run type..hehe.

eventually there will be new Taniel Clerics, and when you are fighting backstabbers that run out and shoot at you, I for one will be grateful for the miracle

[shiad]

Doesnt this trap miracle make it unbelievably hard on those lighter armoured characters whose entire combat strategy is hit an run?
Already they have trouble with clerics (miracles destroy light armoured characters) this will certainly make it worse is the criticism i now havr.

[Delia]

Miracles destroy everyone equally. I do not believe armours play a very big part against the damage done, you just need a BIIIG pile of hp.

[shiad]

And generally those that wear light armour do not have that much hp. I'm just throwing this out there, I don't really care as i'll juts have to avoid pvp with clerics more! but it seems to be removing an entire tactic in pvp combat.

I guess now the cleric will have to be the one that gives chase.

Clerics are already powerful, whereas a non-cleric leaving the room and re-entering is hoping for a good hit. All clerics have at their disposal miracles which can be prepared and instantly discharged once someone enters, if the timing is right, even two miracles at once.

Atleast Id like to hope while the trap miracle is effecting the enemy no other miracles can be cast?

[Delia]

Guess we have to wait and see how it begins to play out. Tweaking can be done if it is initially too powerful.

[adanath]

Well it isn't an instant cast miracle, so its not like you can't hit and run.

You can..you just can't walk into a prepared trap or fight them long enough for them to cast it.

I don't want to get too much into mechanics but that's it.

[rex]

I agree a lot with what has been said above.

Most of the current problem is the lack of good players willing to fight Sathonites. Why is this? Because it’s not fun to play a good character anymore. Here is just one example. I go to the tundra to see the tower of pain has been re-opened. After gathers all the force I can myself and another Cruasder spend 2 hours clearing a path to the Tower of Pain only to go inside and see two giant ghouls, a revenant, skeletons who cut off heads with ease, banshees etc etc. Three hours later we close the tower of pain. Now you’re asking, why not bring a bigger team? We have done this and it almost always ends badly with a banshee insta kill, skeleton, revenant etc. Now that the tower of pain is closed we log off with no way to reinforce the tower of pain. We log back on 12 hours later and it is open again. Perhaps the problem is that we don’t play at the same time and I’m not asking people to start playing when I play but the fact that Sathonites can still be on the offensive while they are not online where as a Cruasder can not is a problem in my opinion. There is no realistic way to keep the tower of pain closed without having a Crusader online at all times and even then with 2 sathonite clerics with two undeads by their side one lone Crusader stands no chance.

As for PVP, in the rare scenario where I find a Sathonite without undeads with them, they will sit in mood defend and cast miracles at me. I would do the same thing if I played a Sathonite as it is extremely effective. But now with new miracles (ie trap) and other miracles already in place (ie earthquake, bone spear) I run a very high risk of just being trapped in a room and dieing of bone spear spamming. There is really no point in me even trying to find them now as it’s just going to end badly for me.

Perhaps because I only play good characters I am only seeing one side of the story. My question is how can we make it more fun for the good guys to play. Perhaps let other guilds (ie. Tanielites, Asrals) be able to set up their own ‘ghouls’ that could provide a chance for them to still kill while not online (yes, crusaders watchtowers but those are not even comparable to revenants). I’m not sure if some people who posted before me realize how difficult it is to kill revenant/ghoul combos. Revenants set up by some of the stronger Sathonites will ‘likely kill me’ (and yes I know revenants should not be easily killed but they should not be able to kill teams of 4-5 strong players either).

This post was not meant to say get rid of ghouls/revenents. I was simply trying to show that from my perspective there is a balance issue. But perhaps the only balance issue that is currently going on is the number of active good vs bad.

[Phelan]

Lets talk about PvP balance.

Let's let a Satho fight one on one against other chars of the same size from other guilds
only taking into account their abilities/miracles.

1. Satho vs Taniel Winner: Taniel
2. Satho vs Asral Winner: Asral
3. Satho vs Crusader Winner: in this case I'd say it depends if the Crussie can
score a critical hit.

Now imagine what happens if Taniel and Crusader team up, and a Ranger joins and/or
a Mage or Shaolin. You multiply the ability to beat up Sathos and undeads by X.

If the Satho fights the Taniel or Crusader below a watchtower then he will lose even
faster, but that would not be a smart move.

If the Satho fights at an undead the advantage is on his side. But undeads are static,
if you decide to fight satho undeads expect to run into a trap, never do it unprepared,
never do it alone.

Concerning some changes, nobody complained when the Asador archers didn't shoot at
them due to a bug. Now that they are fixed suddenly everything is overpowered. No,
they finally work like they should have long time ago. And I can assure you that some
change had a very strong negativ effect on Phelan's ability to fight.

ALL cleric guilds got the new miracle. You can use it as good against Sathos, as Sathos
can use it against you.

IMHO I don't consider Sathos overpowered. They have no allies, but a lot of enemies,
and each has plenty of abilities against them and the undeads.

[shiad]

Giving three guilds the ability to TRAP people in a room for 40 seconds, when previously only one guild had this ability?

In discussing this change did anyone ever think that perhaps there was a reason only a single guild had this ability to begin with?

Effectively this miracle means entering combat with clerics is only settled in death. It makes me never want to PVP, I will continue killing npcs with a passion though.

[Delmon]

Phelan is completely right. I'm sorry, a tshahark crusader like Mogwai would TEAR up a sathos... not to mention you have unicorns and watchtowers. Not to mention ranger long range archery ability. Add a horse to that?

The goodies have great synergy when teamed up. USE IT!

And what about evils that are guildless? Lets just make the goodies more powerful and crush those people too?

Additionally, the evils right now are super strong skill wise, but that hasnt stopped lucifer and others from dying.


... On the topic of the new miracle, does that stop players from attacking and using specials???

[Skragna]

I fail to see how a Taniel wearing /CLOTHES/ beats a plate-wearing, darkness-using Sathonite who can curse their mental and physical stats into newbie levels, more or less effectively neutering their fighting. Same with Asrals. Darkness, curse, win. Trap is total overkill for the Sathonites, and at /most/ a minor buff to the other two. If a mage, shaolin, or ranger is teaming up with a Crusader, quite frankly the Sathonite either needs to run like hell or get behind a revenant. Which can block, cast miracles, and is the single most difficult to kill thing I have seen. Our towers can shoot at you a bit. Revenants can kill you with miracles and physical force. Our towers broadcast their presence, and can only be outdoors, as far as I'm aware. Revenants can be put anywhere and don't care if it's indoors, and they can be placed with two giant undead who use two-handed weapons. So I really don't think you have a leg to stand on for those arguments, Phelan. Your guild has all the advantages, all the cards, and you're the house to boot. It's hard as hell to top one of you in 1vX, god forbid 2vX, and still you want more?

[Delmon]

Phelan has great stats and skills, and is extremely catious. In other words, he plays smart. Darkness is combated by a few lamps and an easy alias. Rly?

It's tough to say what is balanced because the goodie side is weak, plain and simple. It doesn't have the manpower it used to, and that's just something its going to have to struggle through.

Additionally, I know sathos charaters who have like -only died- from crusader towers from one hit crits which the goodie side wasnt even aware of.