Balance issues - PVP

[Delia]

One thing might be that the offered powers are equally powerful in one-on-one and team combat situations. Or atleast that is my understanding. I really like how magic nudges you towards the backrow. Trying to cast while fighting four goblins solo proved to be almost impossible

[Allurana]

@Ganon: Yes, I was going to say that in my own post, but forgot. It's one reason I support Lilithian upgrades- Sathos need some support in the evil department, even if the two sides may not necessarily be allies.

[ganandorf]

@Luminier I think THAT is why curse exists, to balance huge teams taking on a Satho cleric.

On the converse, the sathonites are the only guild in which one player can completely destroy a 5 player team of crusaders/taniels. It's rare, but I did it once. My proudest moment... in life.

[Phelan]

It all depends on the situation, but I think the main problem here is that the good side doesn't work together anymore, more than on anything else. Lumi can't and shouldn't be able to kill everything alone, or just with his unicorn. The good side has more than enough abilities and resources to counter anything the Sathos have. IMHO most of you are not playing smart, but I won't tell you how to beat a Satho

I won't enter in any discussion about what is more powerful, watchtower or revenant, unicorn or whatsoever. All have their advantages and disadvantages and as I said, it all depends on the situation.

[ganandorf]

I will point out that good guys are too proud/stupid to use mercenaries, for some reason it is just not a common thing! Even though more mercenaries were added specifically so that the good guys would have mercenaries that made RP sense.

[isengoo]

If you want to help either side, learn to use a bow/crossbow. Having one person in your team with missile skill can decide a team fight. Since the good side has Ranger support I think it's fine that the evils have more tricks up their sleeve.

[luminier]

It all depends on the situation, but I think the main problem here is that the good side doesn't work together anymore, more than on anything else. Lumi can't and shouldn't be able to kill everything alone, or just with his unicorn. The good side has more than enough abilities and resources to counter anything the Sathos have. IMHO most of you are not playing smart, but I won't tell you how to beat a Satho

I won't enter in any discussion about what is more powerful, watchtower or revenant, unicorn or whatsoever. All have their advantages and disadvantages and as I said, it all depends on the situation.

Hmm I see your point, most things in the game are situational and I understand that. But I feel there is a distinct difference between something being situational (that being depending on the situation... players, ground, undead, buffs) and then something being unfair and stacked against you. What do you do when your advantages aren't advantages anymore? (rhetorical)

I don't understand what you mean by we "aren't playing smart" though. Perhaps it is just due to the lack of players and that is why we are getting continually trounced, but still, I feel it is -in part- at least that the Sathonites are getting buffed when they don't need it.

I don't fight alone by choice, I fight alone because there is no one that will fight with me. Even if I did, we don't stand a chance against a revenant, two undead, and then clerics on top of that. It seems to me like you are suggesting that the "smart" way to fight is to not fight =P.

I never said that Luminier should be able to kill everything (contrary to popular belief I don't actually kill everything easily, one sathonite for example), but, with these new advantages being given to the Sathonites I feel like -my- advantages are being taken away, do you know what I mean? You said that we have abilities to counter what you have. That is true in part, but, as I said I feel like the advantages being given to the Sathonites are too much and I reiterate that in my long post.

Even with all the active clerics and Crusaders on, I would never attack into a revenant, two undead and 1-2 clerics. So as I said, it seems like the "smart" thing to do is not fight

It is too bad you won't discuss the advantages and disadvantages =(
That is why I made the thread! I'd love to hear from you guys on whether you think you guys are getting it hard, it's fair or you are getting it way too easy.

[Delia]

And sometimes playing smart does not make sense from a roleplaying point of view. For example using most or any shao specials in a high-end PvP fight is a waste of time for Delia but not using them would kinda negate her existence. If I wanted to kill a Satho character with Delia I know what I would have her do but it is not who she is.

But what you said about the good side stands true enough even if the lack of cooperation has been influenced by the lack of shao and ranger sightings as well Midlevel characters usually seem discouraged to join any such battles, IMHO. Hopefully people start joining the rangers, Taniels and the shaos eventually so that they could start mingling again in some meaningful way(outside PvP that is)and re-evaluating their relations.

[luminier]

On second thought, I don't care anymore I'm just being a pussy. Ill man up and play the game out.

Just wanted to get some things off my chest.

I won't be responding to this topic anymore


EDIT by the way if a wizard wants to lock this, or delete this, be my guest.

[anglachel]

Some information about the undead changes.

Some weeks ago,the two undead-standard which exists was merged into one undead standard. No single undead was updated or downgraded, but through the merge some undeads get new abilities, other loose some. So some undeads are stronger, other weaker now.

That reveants and some other undeads become incorporeal was an unwanted sideffect of this merge, that is now corrected.

Alle three 'cleric'-guilds get the new 'trap' miracle. So i think there is no balance problem, because all side have the same chance.

To find the balance is always a hard job. The big problem is are the disparty of the sides. To be a member of the evil side is dangerous and deadly, so only big chars area able join this side. Small ones will die quick.

So we have one side with a few, but big chars (and player behind the char who knows the game good) and the other side, who has more member, but only a few are big and many of the them are medium or small (and newbies)
Sometimes one or two very big chars can silde the balance of power.

[ganandorf]

Only now did i learn that all cleric guilds have trap, that does change my opinion somewhat.

[Delia]

Thank you for the information, T Perhaps I'll try to find the presence of mind to log in and check these new undead out

[Zehren]

It all depends on the situation, but I think the main problem here is that the good side doesn't work together anymore, more than on anything else. Lumi can't and shouldn't be able to kill everything alone, or just with his unicorn. The good side has more than enough abilities and resources to counter anything the Sathos have. IMHO most of you are not playing smart, but I won't tell you how to beat a Satho

I won't enter in any discussion about what is more powerful, watchtower or revenant, unicorn or whatsoever. All have their advantages and disadvantages and as I said, it all depends on the situation.

Realistically, a single cut with a knife should be able to kill anyone. (depending on where hit, of course).

[ganandorf]

Another big hope of mine is that this thread does not de-motivate some of the evil players. I do not want to see a major shift from evil domination to good domination, I just want to see fair fights!

[anglachel]

Realistically, a single cut with a knife should be able to kill anyone. (depending on where hit, of course).

I cannot agree to this. Often persons get over 50 (!) stabs with a knife and surrive or die hours later. It is not so easy to kill someone.

It will make not much fun, then you die in the game so easily. Players chars are always something special. They are the heros in the plot and for heors are wounds that will kill normal persons at once, only 'flesh wounds'

An important point of the balance of power is the teamwork. In this points small groups like the Sathonys, who know the weak and strong points of their teammembers have a big advantage. The only way to counter thism is to build specials groups, who work together and learn who the other member play the game and what is best way to assist.

[Aslak]

Hello,

I am pretty new and pretty small still, so I say little to the high power pvp situation, but even I got the feeling the evil side currently is by far too dominant.
What strikes me most are the extremly strong and deadly undeads. They alone are able to kill most players I have seen so far and the leader of the Taniels (not sure how strong he really is) took about half an hour just to dispose a single revenant, with charging in and fleeing bleeding heavily a second later for about 50 times.
I am have no idea how much work it is to raise such powerful things, but seeing how often strong undeads are populating the streets, I think it cannot be that much work. In my opinion, it should be. If you raise such an undead, you would want to keep it to yourself, not just place it somewhere to wait for easy prey. Either those undeads should loose their unholy magic over time (if not close to their creator) and become weaker until they finally die (again) or it should be so much work to create them that they won't be wasted like this. The unicorns I think will have to be trained, so you will not see used them as a meatshield or to block a road just because they can. It would be too much work to get them back to old strength.

I think the undeads on streets, killing people without even a slight danger for the Satho himself, are the worst thing, at least from a newbie sight.

[louis]

I tend to agree with Luminier that - regardless wether all clerics guilds got the new miracle - the crusaders (and the other non-cleric-guilds) still face a "new disadvantage".

On the other hand, the miracle is still under development I heard, and I am quite sure it is not supposed to work like a death trap. Maybe we should wait until it's entirely finished? Or ... what about a dispel wand for traps maybe? Or anything else? Hmm, any suggestions?

[adanath]

Im going back to sleep because I am tired and woke up due to having to take medicine. However I try to stay away from such convos.

Way too early with me waking up...but just my 2 ccs real quick then I sleep

There are always these arguments, then there is always a pendulum..I think po Glorfindel has alluded to it before...soon there will likely be a swing back..then the evil players feel outmatched and so on

I just try to adjust either way and have fun

I died with the trap miracle on lately, there was a bug related...but I might've died anyways and I could have played it smarter.

I could have:

Broken a bone
got some miracles from a cleric
tried to seperate the priest from an undead or lure to a different location
I could have not walked into a prepared room where the satho had a distinct advantage with prepared miracles and even ground

(I think I played rather dumbly myself! Could have played much better!)

So as much my fault as the game mechanics, and it was a very skilled player I was up against so I don't know they would have made a difference anyways.

I think the trap miracle is great, especially since all guilds get it. We just need to encourage more active clerics, which usually Adanath does by taking them around more getting them to bless more, hopefully we can go down that route

I, myself have always viewed the evil side as a side neccessrily that should have some more buffs and advantages than the good side, generally of fewer numbers because well that is how it is. Evil hides in the shadows and in rare times takes over when good goes to the shadows.

I just woke so what I say doesn't matter too much, but I'll keep going and try to get more people to assist us Because I am so damned cute.

My last death though was as much my fault as a bug, and it shouldn't take any merit away from my killer who is very skilled anyways and likely could do it without a single bug.

Anyways, I do like changes I have seen for the most part. Except adanath still doesnt have a boar ring that makes boars come to him magically. (That is a serious balanceissue that should be remedied!)

Anyways, the way Adanath see it

Need show people more goods, then we has more peoples, then we beat Sathos back and keep innocents safe..ooo boar....mmmm...needs get less russszzzty and make new clericssszzzss to helpszsszz.

Good night or good morning, I'm a bit druggy and sleepy, don't get mad at me..its just my rambling thoughts..I try to stay out of these things.

[Zehren]

Realistically, a single cut with a knife should be able to kill anyone. (depending on where hit, of course).

I cannot agree to this. Often persons get over 50 (!) stabs with a knife and surrive or die hours later. It is not so easy to kill someone.

It will make not much fun, then you die in the game so easily. Players chars are always something special. They are the heros in the plot and for heors are wounds that will kill normal persons at once, only 'flesh wounds'

An important point of the balance of power is the teamwork. In this points small groups like the Sathonys, who know the weak and strong points of their teammembers have a big advantage. The only way to counter thism is to build specials groups, who work together and learn who the other member play the game and what is best way to assist.

People *sometimes* get in such absurd situations as getting stabbed bunches of times, or jumping repeatedly from several floors up in a building down onto the ground, without being hurt as much as expected. This is why those stories are incredible - because they are unusual. Modern medicine/surgery also helps rathermuch when it comes to surviving thingies.

However, in older times, a mere scratch of a weapon could often lead to infection, and then death. (Hours, days, weeks later, but still - death.)

With wounds, (not counting death from infection,) location has much to say. Major arteries, vital organs, the windpipe...

To elaborate on my original statement: Realistically, a single cut with a knife, depending on where it hits, has a chance of killing anyone. (Even larger in medieval times, due to infection.)

I agree, though - few, if any, games are based on realistic combat
I would personally enjoy a realistic fantasy game rather much, I think, but I seriously doubt Geas would benefit from suddenly going all realism.

I tend to agree with Luminier that - regardless wether all clerics guilds got the new miracle - the crusaders (and the other non-cleric-guilds) still face a "new disadvantage".

On the other hand, the miracle is still under development I heard, and I am quite sure it is not supposed to work like a death trap. Maybe we should wait until it's entirely finished? Or ... what about a dispel wand for traps maybe? Or anything else? Hmm, any suggestions?

Noooo, no magic as the general counter. *flails arms*

[fernao]

It was said before, the goodies lack cooperation.
I recall times when rangers were on constant patrol along with a crusader or cleric. All learning the other weaknesses and strength with that while training to work as a team at the same time.

Albeit normally only strong characters tend to join the Sathos, there are currently a couple of younger/weaker ones around.

Teamwork is the key to success.

And even if I re-iterate some of the IG rhetorics Lucifer uses, there was a reason why the treaties were made. To allow the good side to recuberate, in safety, to regain their strength, to "train up" their recruits and to come back into the fight with at least an equal if not surpassing strength. The "goodies" broke a number of treaties, we evils felt pissed.The rest is history, well, ongoing history...