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Re: How should we treat eachother?

Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:07 pm
by luminier
If I play too moderate, thats bad. But if I play too strict, thats bad.

Sounds like the Crusaders are just -bad-?

Also to mograine, sorry you had such a bad experience with your character. Darkelves are pretty much a kill on sight kind of thing. The only exception IG would be Ganon because he has a deal with the Crusaders. Perhaps the same can work for you. Arborea allows you so you can be sort of the darkelf anti-hero!

I can attest that Druids would never help in any war unless it was against undead or demons.

I agree we need a new city. Ironhold was suppose to fill the role of a new city for thieves and such, but I don't think it does it's job very well. Especially when it's a stomping ground for Sathonites and Taniels on the daily. Asador being controlled by Sathos means thats out as well. Perhaps some kind of other city? Maybe a few people can all worktogether and write some descriptions and a map for a new city for thieves and other outcasts?

Or we can think up some RP solution. I honestly think of Mograines darkelf came back today she would be very happy with the RP situation she could have in Arborea.

Re: How should we treat eachother?

Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 4:35 pm
by Aslak
I can attest that Druids would never help in any war unless it was against undead or demons.
Well, they were at my doorstep and claiming quite wildly they would join :mrgreen:

Re: How should we treat eachother?

Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:33 pm
by ghalt
The problem with a new city is like... say, the underground would work fine for this, more or less. How many folk do you see in the underground? In Naarved?

As far as like... elvandar being the city of the good & the pure: as far as I understand it we rogues are supposed to infiltrate it and be sources of corruption and so on? I mean it's not just the city of Taniel, it's also the city of Bernard and the Halfling Embassy and other folks you guys don't even know about? And like... it can be the city of "looks really good on the surface, corruption underneath" which I find interesting, or it can be the city of "no really, everything is upstanding and legitimate here, we kicked all the bad apples out".

And which of those it is really depends on the players that are not me? Like essentially if good side exercises all power at the fingertips it really is totes just going to be the good and pure and nothing bad here city?

Like this is the thread of "how should we treat people" and this is another tangent, but... Like... your characters should have goals, but if you use all power at your fingertips to accomplish them, and you're a strong char or in a well supported guild, then other players are going to get shoved out of your way?

Re: How should we treat eachother?

Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:00 pm
by Aslak
I think most people lack personal goals in the mud. They just too easily inherit the guild goals or god goals to 100% without having their own little idea of what it should be.
That leaves little room for a few steps left or right of the way

Re: How should we treat eachother?

Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:58 pm
by morgaine
I'm not sure if any reply is worth it, but whatever.
Aturshus wrote: I'm going to ignore the angry ranting here and address the actual points in order to move the conversation forward.
I admit I was pretty enraged by the lack of thought and care you treated the whole situation with. Should not have gotten the better of me. I apologize for the tone, which was inappropriate. Not for what I said, I stand by that.
Aturshus wrote: You're making a lot of assumptions, poMorgaine, so let me clarify.
Yes, based on what I experienced.
Aturshus wrote: Never once has my character outright just killed people. I roleplay it and the roleplay is what they're whining about. OF COURSE good characters are going to dislike bad characters. Seriously, who are you kidding? The code just doesn't give those bad characters any support. We need more domains than just the ones we have, we need services (like horses) to be available in more locations (also guilds in each city).
I haven't been on morg for over a year, maybe I err and everybody is doing things beside on-sight killing? Maybe thieves have a chance to redeem themselves and are not forever the scapegoats / punchbags of the goodies? If that is the case, all my arguments are invalid.
Aturshus wrote: Nobody should be killed outright without a chance at some roleplay, unless they are already a well established foe and even then RP is preferred, but you can't blame a player for doing what their role demands of them, it's not our fault Elvandar is such a big part of the world. That's what I keep saying, we need more world so certain groups only control a smaller chunk of it and therefore make it less a big deal if you are kicked out of one place. Keep in mind that if moderate evil characters did get a place to go, you would get a lot more roleplay opportunities rather than less, because by giving players more options besides playing a goodie, more characters of other types will start popping up and you'd eventually get a new society going with like-minded characters. You'd still have that tension between good and evil but it wouldn't mean your character is unplayable by any means. There needs to be better ways for rogues to thrive in an environment where they are unwelcome, of course. Once again, disguises need looked at.
It was not intended to blame people for playing their role, it was intention to say that I've never once had one incident where I had the impression one goodie was going out of his way, to actually make our clashing an enjoyable experience. And by enjoyable I don't mean any different in consequences, but in the approach. To that extend the tundra banish I mentioned was actually an improvement. Also, this could not have been aimed at you, because we never met in game, did we?
Aturshus wrote: Throwing blame at people who are doing what they're supposed to do is really annoying. Even as I explain that my stance is that we need more support for evil characters, it doesn't seem like you even read the last part you quoted. I am not going to apologize because I'm doing what I'm meant to do, I'm roleplaying it out instead of just killing people, and I'm already being much more lenient than I'm SUPPOSED to be. And yet I can assure you most of this is because I'm doing exactly that?
Please, see above. Think there might be a misunderstanding of points. I don't expect you to be lax, I wish people would go for an alternative that's bearable for all parties. I have not seen much beside 'kill evil guy on sight' and 'pick on them forever', if that's just my limited impression, then I'm sorry.
Aturshus wrote: And I already get killed pretty often when I come across somebody who is my enemy, because YES, it's kill or be killed. I don't complain, because that's part of the game. I died 6 times in the past month or so and last I checked, all that happened to the character Rudolpho was some people hurt his feelings.
What I was trying to express with that paragraph is: If everybody stops to go a little out of their way to make an encounter enjoyable, it'll always be just "kill char" and that's something I despise. Sure, we need to follow our Fanatic commandments and we should, don't get me wrong on this. But often there's a little more creative solution that turns a bad encounter into a good one. A little creativity and a chance to be part of this world, not your punching bag? All I try to ask for?

poLuminier, thanks, but I really am done trying. I get a darkelf that is not a powerful satho, will always be on the receiving end and it just isn't for me. I will bring another character around, but if they'll be evil? I honestly doubt it.


- never meant to insult anyone for playing their role, actually approve that they do.
- hoping for people to try to make things enjoyable even if the result is a death.
- asking for a place in this world for people who are not PVP centered but like to
play characters that are 'slighly evil'?
- asking not to be used as punching bags?

Re: How should we treat eachother?

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:43 am
by luminier
You should still try, cause it would be easier now!

Re: How should we treat eachother?

Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:28 pm
by Aturshus
Well you're right, there's little room for evil that isn't built to fight against a team of foes. What I've been saying is there definitely should be, but I don't think that'll ever happen in Elvandar.

There are some darkelves that aren't attacked on sight. I can think of two my character wouldn't bother unless they gave him a direct cause.

Re: How should we treat eachother?

Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 4:30 am
by mazarmormuk
i agree that should never happen in elvandar, too.

the question though is, is it right by the code to place a majority of guilds on one extreme side with main city controle, and is it right by the players to bend their codexes and rules -that maybe dont have much differences anyways- just that bit that is needed to find a common ground, and so building a huge lump not allowing any slight evil to exist?

that maybe also answers your -"are crucs just always bad" thing, luminier.
As long as you (elvandarians) play moderate within that inner group of elvandar and dont play out the differences, you shouuld play moderate to the people outside of that group, too.

You could, on the other hand decide to play extremes -druids beeing angry at crusaders for bringing unicorns to war- taniels pointing at whatever differences between druids, crusaders, rangers,...(you surely know them better than i do).then you arent such a overwhelming group and playing your extremists position will not end in death for all that do not follow.

Re: How should we treat eachother?

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:36 pm
by ghalt
morgaine wrote:A little creativity and a chance to be part of this world, not your punching bag? All I try to ask for?
This... really isn't asking for the moon here. But I'm not really convinced this type of behavior is going to change in any way?

Re: How should we treat eachother?

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:42 pm
by louis
Well, I personally hope it will - As a first measure I will collect all suggestions in a new summary-thread.

Re: How should we treat eachother?

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:15 pm
by louis
Amendment - Hmm, the suggestion list is not very long til yet - more suggestions?

Re: How should we treat eachother?

Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:42 am
by morgaine
Can we think of something that will encourage people not to crush characters just because they've been revealed?

Think that is my main wish, a chance for a character that's revealed (and has been evil) to recover from their discovery. You simply can't expect anyone to live with a constant hatred, esp. not thieves. Why? because we need to be in your midst to actually do anything. Shoving us into another city will destroy us as much as the constant hatred does. Someone here said that thieves are treated worse then death priests. Something that should be reflected by such rules to prevent it?


* Make an effort to allow characters a recovery from failure in a sensible and 'fun' penance for their respective crime. If someone is caught for thievery, consider enlisting them in community service, city defense, trading support or trips to dangerous places instead of years of 'hate' aggressions. Having your own meatshield on a trip can be inviting, you don't need to protect them, but they need to clear a path for you? Most of these 'lesser evils' have interesting skillsets you can enlist, if you just try.

Please ignore the whole "fanatism has to be played out" strand of this discussion for now, I'll make a new thread for this in a bit, as it's something separate.

Re: How should we treat eachother?

Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:14 pm
by luminier
I personally do this already, laws in Elvandar will be changing so this is possible as well.

Re: How should we treat eachother?

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:43 am
by Olrane
Fundamentally, there needs to be a culture that accepts the presence of every guild to be represented by both mature and adolescent players of the game, and which does not create "game over" states for any guild.
I don't know if this is possible, but if it is it would require a significant shift in the IC world that might not be desirable (and at its very best, will take work both from the devs and the players).

What I mean to say is that OOCly, we should strive to create a world wherein every major faction has real faces that interact with one another to drive conflicts.

My experience with Geas has been (with exceptions of course) primarily oriented toward thieves. I played three different thief characters, and each character ended in a "game over" state. After the third (and my most invested character), I quit the game because even with my best attempt to do my duty as one of the faction Faces, this brought about far too much OOC harassment to be tenable.

Do we want this? Do we want "game over" states? I want to see gigantic, aged characters in every guild from the Druids to the Sathonites. This can't happen in this world.

I'm not saying to go around licking the bonemail boots of cloaked death cultists, or to not check your purse after you feel something brush your side. I'm saying that the game's better when you actually have Player Characters you can interact with that represent each faction, so do whatever you can to retain those characters/players. They are doing a job that you couldn't/wouldn't do, and you should be giving them thanks and welcoming them for representing the diversity that we hope to have.

Re: How should we treat eachother?

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:49 am
by luminier
^^ agreed.

This role should be taken on by guild leaders if it is not already.