Sathonite Toxicity

[Lauriert]

The Sathonite guild has been extremely toxic of late. Whether ignoring fair play rules or blatantly gaming the system. The following is a list of examples of their toxicity.

Placing twohander undead on the roads and other places that are unfair
Using darkness and mercs to cheese gate guards in either cities or guilds
Targetting mercs hired by newbies
Not ever conceding even after dying 100 times
Metagaming the who list to know when to attack cities

I'm sure there are more and anyone with examples is welcome to reply and name them.

[Israfel]

I'm sure there are more and anyone with examples is welcome to reply and name them.

I suggest we skip the big list of your problems and their problems and cut to the chase.

Here’s how issues can get solved in this game in order of least to most invasive:

• Roleplay (IC)
  Player etiquette (OOC)
  Implementing OOC rules/guidelines
  Wizard intervention
  Code enforced behaviour/game setting

It’s pretty straight-forward.

Sure, some stuff you just need to report so a wizard can fix it. If you find a bug, or think something is too good to be true, just report it and move on.

If someone is breaking a rule, report it to the Player Arch.

You’re a player, not a wizard.

But as a player, you have the two easiest methods of solving your own problems at your disposal. You don’t even need to bother a wizard to use them. Just adjust your RP (IC) and change your behaviour/etiquette (OOC).

No wizard is going to volunteer their time to solve your problems for you if you haven’t made an effort to take responsibility for what’s in your control already.

It is worth asking yourself, have you really tried to solve this problem yourself? Or have you only escalated the conflict? Does this really need a code-enforced change to the game?

No amount of code will fix lame RP or the inability of players to have a mature OOC conversation.

At the end of the day, even if a wizard intervenes in a dispute it might result in the following:
1. A wizard spending their free time listening to complaints
2. Players refresh themselves on conduct and rules
3. Players needing to adjust their behaviour (OOC) and RP (IC)

And if you can’t do #3, then:

4. Players are free to not play.

We can all probably just skip the hassle of step #1 and do the rest ourselves. If we can manage that then we might actually make it worth our wizards' time volunteering here.

[Lauriert]

These aren't my problems personally. These are things which have been affecting many people newbies included.

[Arsicas]

It seems like the biggest issue is a lack of player trust. People see the Sathos as just killing people because they can, without a concern for whether it is fun for others. And a lot of people don’t seem to be having fun, to the point where they’ve stopped playing.

I’m still up for playing out the conflict, but my char is one of only a few who can stand up to the current Sathos. And, okay, we can kill each other back and forth, but that gets boring after a while. I think the key is for players on both sides to find what would make the conflict engaging and exciting and to be considerate of the other players behind the screen.

[lythande]

Arsicas just said the reason I don't play much, if at all, anymore. Geas has an in depth, immersive environment that is awesome and lots of fun to explore. I don't like PK much because I don't like attacking others and I really stink at defending myself from it. It's fine if I die to a great scene, but when the entire game just becomes dying to PK before recovering from your last death over and over, it ceases to be fun. Especially when it feels like you have no chance to win. The ones that are PK'ing right now are NOT doing it for the roleplay (go ahead and convince me otherwise if you want) . They are just minimally roleplaying because they are PK'ers and like PK.

If I understand things correctly, evil folks were given more power than good ones, because good people are supposed to have the numbers and allies over them. Well, that might work if you had thirty or forty players and 20 percent of them were evil, but thats not how it is. In a game where death is as punishing as it is on Geas, it's disheartening to be killed or hunted every time you log on.

[Delmon]

Yep, the game dissolved into a bunch of complaining about evils. Really the game doesnt have players that ever want to fight or go through conflicts because they think everything is stacked against them and cant negotiate (yet it took only one shoalin to bulldoze through all the evils...). There's not much good PK oriented play either (different priorities). There's no point in playing evil because you'll definitely run out of things to do and if you try to come up with ideas or try things you will be whined at constantly. I think the game would better serve its current small playerbase by not letting players attack eachother.

[Delia]

Playing evil(or oppressive good)is always tricky as you are forcing yourself on people, which people might easily object to when they feel they have no say about the matter or see no rhyme or reason behind actions. Ultimately it is always a failure of communication when the game dissolves into player vs. player conflicts instead of character vs. character conflicts. I have to say that I am fairly tired of the player vs. player orientation myself.

[Delmon]

Player vs player was great back in the day when everyone was bashing eachother but it takes certain type of playerbase. Players that actually enjoy the multi dimensional aspects of geas combat and the risks, etc. Unfortunately you have cases opposite to productive conflicts such as Laur (he’s kind of an extreme) who play without caring about dying or log off during a fight he can’t win, never give up, and complain about how weak their char is. You have guild leaders that don’t log in or start wars and not take care of their members (I’m pointing at the crusaders). And then you have the sidelined chars that grumble and talk about how they would change the game or how this death was not warranted or how this or that is overpowered. Yeah count me out of that! Then you are left with RP stuff… but wait, you have guild code that wants conflict to happen so you have to do some dancing around the code to play tea party.

[ferranifer]

Yep, the game dissolved into a bunch of complaining about evils. Really the game doesnt have players that ever want to fight or go through conflicts because they think everything is stacked against them and cant negotiate (yet it took only one shoalin to bulldoze through all the evils...).

This is a little distorted. It took one shaolin character to get bigger and stronger than the top actors on the evil side, and rally the (often invisible) support of an entire network of supporters with things like potions, sigils, blessings and so on. Plus creating the right situations (this is mostly due to player skill and knowledge). And this one character is still to date the only one that can really stand up to the opposition openly. This is a very unhealthy situation for the game.

There's not much good PK oriented play either (different priorities). There's no point in playing evil because you'll definitely run out of things to do and if you try to come up with ideas or try things you will be whined at constantly.

I actually like PK, and I've played the entire gamut of evil and good characters. But the current combat setup is such that you are either a top level competitor or you are utterly and hopelessly outmatched. If you get to the fighting each other part, you have to be at the top of your game or you will be destroyed. Also, PK should be a means to an end. PvP conflict imho works much better before and after people actually fight each other, when it deploys, evolves and resolves through political play and advances storylines. When the fighting each other beat loops infinitely and never resolves, it becomes tedious, pointless mechanical wrestling.

I think the game would better serve its current small playerbase by not letting players attack eachother.

The game needs people to be aware of their power and use it responsibly, not to remove parts of the game that are core to the experience. Geas without the prospect of PvP would fall apart. When it happens, it's not as awesome as one would've thought it was, but if you remove the tension, the struggle and the adrenaline rushes the game would lose pretty much all its appeal (to me).

It's really hard to gauge the level of tension and engagement of other players correctly. This is a coop storytelling game we are playing. This is why communication is key. It baffles me to hear people decline to comment/interact OOC to keep a finger on the pulse of the action and facilitate IC developments (facilitate, not replace). IMHO this is the main issue (not just of these recent times but also similar situations in the past).

[Delmon]

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[ferranifer]

You don't have to adhere strictly to what's coded and stop there. There is a lot of space for adding to it. Some elements of the conflict are heavily coded, yes, they create a strong foundation so stories can paint a cohesive picture. The stories happen when players put their imaginations together and build on top of those foundations.

Sticking strictly to what's there mechanically is what leads to boredom and repetition. The game cannot possibly model the types of things people will come up with. A lot of it needs to be given space by the playerbase taking compromises and playing a game of imagined political and personal dynamics.

[Delmon]

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[Delmon]

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[Arsicas]

I would say there’s been some complaining and assumptions that aren’t warranted. I’ve seen people complain about “PvP without rp,” but like, what sort of rp is expected? I guess in the past, evil chars managed to be taunting and threatening without even engaging in actual fighting? But still, fighting was a part of it. And the rp of evil characters is conflict and antagonizing the good chars. That’s the role. So the fact that an evil character is doing evil things isn’t really something to complain about. I think the question is more is this conflict adding to the experience of the other players involved? I mean, I guess if you just want to do your own thing and this evil character comes along and disrupts it, you might be bothered by that, but conflict is a part of the game. Interacting with other characters, even not so nice ones, is a part of the game. If you have certain boundaries or things you don’t want to play out, that’s where OOC communication can come into play. But just straight up not wanting to interact with evil characters is kind of... eh.

The biggest thing that I’ve seen that has been frustrating for people, to the point of not wanting to play, is getting killed repeatedly or (seemingly) senselessly, often by giant undead left in cities or other “cheap” locations. Or feeling like, no matter what they do, the evils are just going to continue stomping all over everyone. Some players just feel like their characters are severely outmatched by the bigger evil characters out there, and if they don’t stand a chance, why bother trying to engage? Though I know I had fun helping some lowbie Crusaders fend off Delmon, so it is possible for smaller characters to get involved, but that takes some knowledge of your opponent’s skill level and handling accordingly, which can sometimes be difficult in the heat of battle. I also know people don’t like to lose, so jumping into a fight where you know you’re severely outmatched takes some serious dedication to your character’s rp. But then, the overpowered side also has to make it interesting to lose, as I know some people have begroaned the typical capture scenario where they get tortured and hear the same old spiel.

Overall, I think it just comes down to player trust and cooperative play over “winning.”

[lirynel]

as I know some people have begroaned the typical capture scenario where they get tortured and hear the same old spiel.

And it's not just the goodies that happens to.

Being forced to spend 6 RL, online hours shackled to a cross waiting for thirst to kill you isn't much fun for a Satho either and is the reason for at least 2 Sathos quitting. That leaves the others with nobody to talk to or RP with so it's probably indirectly the cause of more than two quitting.

Not complaining about it - I already did that. Just trying to point out it's not always the one sided thing that people think it is.

[ferranifer]

as I know some people have begroaned the typical capture scenario where they get tortured and hear the same old spiel.

And it's not just the goodies that happens to.

Being forced to spend 6 RL, online hours shackled to a cross waiting for thirst to kill you isn't much fun for a Satho either

This really sucked. We did wait for you and tried to find you OOC, but it wasn't possible. We exchanged mails about this (and I also contacted the admin about it), absolutely 100% unintended. Admin also told me you had a bug on top of it where your blindness didn't clear after ressing. But. There was no actual IC torture, demand or interaction with you after you were shackled to stop you from snooping on what were doing. This was in part because we simply let you be, but also because you quit the game and didn't come back until we were gone from Asador. All in all, sucks, but not for the reasons you imply.

and is the reason for at least 2 Sathos quitting.

Ehh? How can an accident and a bug be related with this social issue? No, this was not the reason the other satho quit. Sympathy for your (understandable) anger, maybe, but not directly caused by any pattern of behavior or even singular IC event from the opposing side.

If torture (which did not happen) is grounds for people to quit, then the entire MUD would have quit at some point. It's hard to understand the argument coming from the side that quite literally has used torture RP as an endorsed method of coercion for 23 RL years. The elegant thing to do is to black curtain the scene, but torture and sacrifice is at the core of the Sathonite IC playbook.

EDIT: Mind you, I'm not criticizing torture being used for RP reasons, though I don't find it particularly fun to do or receive. I'm just saying that sathos torturing is normal.

[Delia]

There always have been issues. There same issues have always been there even during the "golden days". It is pretty obvious when you read the old posts on this forum. Players can be jerks and eventually will be. When players do not communicate it is easy to assume someone is being a jerk.

Geas requires heavy investment and as such tempers flare easily. With PvP the usual problem is that most online games share is that big characters with power kill weaker characters without power. The fun sweet spot where everything seems balanced is almost unattainable and as such pvp can quickly start to feel completely meaningless if it seems it is only pvp to just do pvp.

Which is why I think it is of utmost importance to communicate your goals. Preferably both OOC and IC to avoid the all too usual death cycle that spirals into flaming hell of raging players.

I also have to defense discord a bit. I think it is wonderful but sure, not without fault but that is just human psychology. There William always be bad eggs and people overreacting but all in all it has managed to keep players interested and connected. Also one thing discord (and slack) has shown me is that people hardly understand how the game works and really struggle with it. Hence all the talks about mechanisms at play. People want to understand the thing they spend their time on and talk about it.

[Delmon]

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[IamEz]

I think the thing a lot of people neglect is that this is, over and above anything else, a story. Yes, there's certain game mechanics, but they're meant to support the ongoing story, not be an end in and of themselves. The whole entire reason skills are so hard to learn is that the wizzes wanted to prevent players from just going and grinding all the time and ignoring rp. Which...seems not to have worked as they'd planned.

Anyway, my point is, any story HAS to have conflict, because without conflict, there IS no story. And yet, it can't always be the same kind or intensity of conflict either, otherwise you get bored or desensitized and stop caring about any of it anymore. There have to be calmer moments, and moments that evoke different emotions for contrast. Contrast is what keeps it from getting stale and boring, and allows for a story with greater dimensions and nuance.

None of the players are saying "I'm sick of conflict", what they're saying is "I'm sick of the same old conflict over and over again with nothing ever changing." I think people are in desperate need of a few slower moments to rest and recuperate, but also to provide room for new and different conflicts to emerge, or for different characters with different motivations to get involved and drive the conflict in unexpected directions.

At the end of the day, this is supposed to be fun. But if a few players having fun requires the vast majority of the playerbase to be miserable, is it really worth it? If everyone leaves because they're sick of the same old same old, who will you find to have conflict with?

[Delmon]

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