Joining guilds

[Xog]

Thought I'd start a new topic about guild joining to get different opinions.
This is my second attempt at writing this post, the last one I think I made it too... what's the word... scathing?
So, guild joining...
As newbies to Geas, joining a guild is a new consept.
We come from muds where its just something you instently do, then you earn your new abilities through gaining experience to spend or experience plus coin etc depending on the mud you play.
On geas, its different.
People want you to gain worldly experience before joining.
However, there is no set timeframe as to how long you have to wait before you can join.

Now, I am not speaking of satho clergy, or other such evil guilds.
Most everyone knows, and understands that joining an evil guild you should be pretty much an experienced player.
Someone who really knows the ins and outs of the game.
Someone who can handle themselves in pvp and other stuff that comes with playing a bad guy/girl.
What this post is more towards guilds that a newbie would attempt to join.

I am going to share my experience, so, others might understand where I am coming from, and perhaps other newbies have felt the same way.

Xog first wanted to join the shao-lin.
I did have meetings with players to start the process, and was given certain goals to work towards.
Also, I was told to continue to train.

Later on, I caught back up with the leaders of the guild, and basically was told to continue training and we will talk again.
This time, I got really kind of hurt.
By this point, all of my combat skills were well over the 60 mark, and some almost to the point I could teach.
Even for my hark, meditation was pushing 50.
To be told to continue training with not a reason why, is just... I don't know. Rough.

Then someone told me through an ooc chat in game that the guild wasn't accepting players oocly and hasn't been for almost a ooc year and not for lack of applications.
Do you know what this does to a player?
It's like you work all this time to build up a char to find out that the guild just isn't accepting players and won't tell you such.
It's one of the reasons Xog decided to go towards the Asral clergy.
At least they were active constently, and when they told Xog to wait, they actually gave a logical reason instead of "do more training."
Now, I had 12+ days of play time, so, I had plenty of world experience by this point.

I completely understand the thought behind not allowing newbies enroll into a guild instently upon creation and to gain some world experience.
However, there should be a point where enough is enough.
You are given a test if combat skills are required or something, or a vote by guild members if that is what the next step in the processof joining a guild is.

I know each guild is different.
Some guilds have stat requirements, others do not.
What ever the case is, there should be a point to where a guild leader tells said player either we are no longer accepting new members, your not a fit or what ever.
Don't keep players holding onto something that isn't going to happen.

If Chud got into the crusaders after a week of playing is actually a shocker.
If it were that easy, lol, I should have went to them.
However, I didn't want to constently be a target for darkelves, and a crusader wasn't in my profile for Xog's character.

Now, Not to defend Chud, but in all the time playing as Xog, I never once saw the ranger leaders active, though I know who they are.
Playing 14+ hours at times, that would have pretty much put me in most timezones.
So, I would think that at least one point I would have seen them, or cross their path at least once in a blue moon.
However, not once did I cross their path.

Not to defend the rangers, or other guilds, but the ooc board did state that if you are going to mail people without being introduced to them, you need to set up mailnicks.
Those posts have been up for a while, and Ceinna was one who mentioned it a while back.
I don't recall offhand when she actually mentioned it.
So, if you don't set up mailnicks, then the packmaster probably couldn't have responded to Chud's note.

Newbies when first creating isn't aware to "set mailnicks."
That can't even be rped.
You can only hope that someone told you up front to set one up.

So, though I do agree that there should be rp interraction from guild leaders and new members about joining, instead of doing it through a npc, there also should be guidelines.
I know that a few guilds are ran by alts.
This makes it hard, because if the player doesn't play that guilds alt constently, then a player could be waiting around for days until that player logs that alt back on.

It really isn't fair to make players wait for months to join a guild.
Guilds bring more excitement to the game.
I am not sure how or what can be done about guild membership, but I do think something should change.
Especially when it comes down to you are a guild leader, but you are not constently active so that players who are looking to join or have started the process of joining can seek you out.
And when players join through the npcs, they are denied, and almost punished because they went through the npc to start with.

Ok, getting off my box lol.

[Arsicas]

I think you make some valid points. It might also be helpful to have helpfiles for the various guilds that state what the guild stands for and what is expected of members. That way newbies might have a better idea of whether they’d be right for a particular guild and don’t spend time working toward joining a particular guild only to find that it isn’t really what they signed up for.

Another thing that is important as far as joining guilds though is building relationships with its members. And I know this can be hard if you have different playtimes, but I think it’s why people push for joining through a PC rather than an NPC because then you can have someone take you under their wing and show you what the guild is all about. I think I’m a bit guilty of not fostering more rp with wannabe mages, but different playtimes is also an issue. But I think for all guilds, they want to be able to trust the person they are taking on, which is why sometimes joining can take a long time.

On that note, I think the “initiate” rank was removed from some of the guilds? You used to be able to leave, for instance, the clergy or Crusaders at the first rank and not be made an enemy automatically. But at least a couple people have mentioned being made an enemy after leaving when they were only at the initiate rank. I think having a rank where you can get a taste of the guild without having access to things like the guild hall might be helpful as far as bringing people into the guild without having to worry too much about them betraying you. And they could then have set benchmarks to reach before being allowed as a full member. That way new characters can feel like they’re a part of something and that they’re making progress without beating their head against the wall. And once they meet the requirements rp- and skill-wise, they can take their oath and join as a full member with all the benefits and consequences if they leave.

Some more ideas we had regarding making improvements to contacting guild leaders/applicants: Have your mailnick automatically set to your name at creation. Then, if you want, you can change it later to something else. Have the applicant list show the name of the applicant as well as description. You can assume that if they ask the NPC about joining, the NPC will write down their name to put them on the list. There have been countless times that I’ve seen just someone’s desc on the applicant list and can’t contact them because I haven’t actually met them in game. Which, I’m sure, just makes people feel ignored. Maybe a way to contact guild leadership as well? So that even if you don’t know who the current guild leader is, you can have the NPC send them a note.

On another note, I don’t think a guild should ever be closed to new members. I know the Shaolin were at war at the time, and so the leadership didn’t feel right bringing on new members only to make them targets, but as far as fairplay, small characters shouldn’t be targeted anyway. Of course, that doesn’t help if a bigger member is out helping train a smaller member and the bigger member gets attacked. But that’s part of the risk of being a member of a guild in conflict too. I think it’s unfair to cut off guild membership to other players because of conflict going on, because there will always be conflict and that’s part of the game.

But the other problem that limits players from joining guilds is the leadership’s lack of playtime or playing alts or otherwise being unavailable. With a small playerbase, that’s going to be an issue though. So, I’d say that applicants should have a little patience but also shouldn’t be left waiting for weeks. Hopefully making it easier to communicate will help ease some of the frustration.

[Ash]

I'm in favor of the lowest rank of each guild basically being a trial rank. I think you should be given a little equipment, shelter, and provided a line item by a senior member if they think you're trustworthy. The problem seems that a lot of guilds in the past were abused by people joining as spies, which seems to be the case for why things seem strict. I agree though it sucks to put ~10 days into a character then be told "we're not really accepting anyone right now." It sucks the fun out of a lot of things for sure. On the bright side, it seems there are efforts right now to have a looser restricted guild in place to give newbies a home and community while they try to figure their life out. I hope it ends up being a reality because I think a lot of newer players could use that.

[ceinna]

I agree there needs to be some streamlining.

I do want to point out though that not all guilds even have true leadership. I know of at least three that do not have leadership. Its more when you reach this point everyone is equal. So even if someone has a leadership rank in one guild does not mean they hold it in all (and I say this as someone who does have a leadership type rank in the Taniels but is also one of the only active members in a group without true leadership as well so being one of the solo active I do leadership stuff. But if there were other members active it would be different).

[Silvie]

The reason Chud got into the Crusaders early is because my Crusader character has the ability to invite people, and I believe that the lowest rank of a guild should be easily accessible to Newbies. Personally to me I find the Unguilded and Guilded experience of Geas to be massively different. And being guilded makes the game so much more fun with the tools and communication you have with other players.

I think the best idea is to just have a change of view in how guild membership should be done, the lowest ranks of the guilds in my experience exist for the point of being there for people who want to join and are newbies. I think waiting even two weeks or a month to join a guild is silly and it's no wonder that new players would move on realising this, I'm shocked that Xog stuck around as long as he did with that treatment. But really I think being able to join a guild should be accessible to newbies with little playtime, and older players in those guilds should take the role in mentoring new players. Keeping guilds which is so much of the games fun and content behind barriers that other MUDs simply don't have will only drive people away from Geas.

[Xog]

So, let me toss out some suggestions.
I think these would be fair to old and new players.
Heck, I might come back and roll a new char if this got implemented.

1. Allow players to join through npc or player without denying the application.
Also, take the 7 day waiting timeframe away.
If a player has taken the time to meet experience requirements, and skill requirements, then let them just join.
2. Allow said player access to guild equipment and guild line.
3. Code the npc to tell said player they don't have enough experience in the world to join said guild.
If a player joins a guild through the npc, they should be at least over beginner level.
Maybe make it far from experienced or some such.
4. Move all guild boards to apart of the guild that level 1 guild members can not get access too.
5. remove code from npcs that would grant advancement. This would still give guild leaders control over players who has joined said guild.
Or, leave the code in, but then allow the guild leader to tell said npc to add playername to list of accepted members or something.
6. If said player joins through a npc, there should also be a "check" of skills.
Example, shaos depend on unarmed.
So, force the npc to check to see if said player has a reasonable amount of unarmed skill.
I know that mages has a stat requirement, and I would also state that the evil guilds should not have a join via npc option.
The evils are active, and newbies shouldn't be just rolling a char and hopping directly to those guilds anyways.
If you are told by said npc that you don't have the skills to join said guild, then have said npc tell the player what their missing.
Though, if you are joining a certain guild, it should be obvious what skils you might need.
Though, the clergy, maybe it should be a kinda stat requirement? Maybe wis for Taniels, and maybe polearm/chain/armour or something for asrals IDK.

The reason I suggest to allow player to have full access to guild eq is because most of the playerbase knows what equipment belongs to what guild.
If someone is having guild equipment that isn't apart of the guild, well...
Someone's about to be in a pickle.

Allow high ranking members to still be able to dismiss anyone in the guild, rather they joined via npc or player if there is a rp reason.
Don't just kick players out of a guild because... they joined via npc, or you just don't know them.
This would greatly open doors for the older guild members to introduce themselves to said player, and ask if they have a mentor or something and rp with them.

Anyways, just some suggestions that might help players feel like their notjust spending time building a character for nothing and with a smaller playerbase, players can still join guilds while waiting for higher ranking members to log on, and or take them under their wing.
Teaching them of their ways etc.
If said player leaves the guild at rank 1, then their not an enemy unless said player did something with rp that caused them to become an enemy.
So, I could leave my guild, and I am no enemy.
However, if I left the guild and then started attacking people, or joined the evils, then that guild could manually go in and tell the guild or what ever to say I am an enemy of the guild etc.

[Aslak]

Hello everyone,

as one of those players who decides about joining, at least for the Asral clergy, I usually let people a wait time of 2-4 weeks. This boils down to several reasons.
First and foremost, I want to make sure the applicants get a basic understanding of what it means to be a cleric, has a basic understanding of the world and understands that joining a guild is a major step that has consequences.
Second, I try to get a feeling if the character and his behavior actually fits into the guild and the other players there. There is no good to come out of it if everyone hates each other.
Third, is to see if they are willing to invest at least a bit into waiting and are not just looking to grab some cool features of the guild.
Honestly, character strength, is not really important to me, I rather like to spend some time with the chars to see if they fit or not then tell them go get polearm to 60. For a more PVP engaged guild, that might be different, but even the Sathos had accepted Peguel as a tiny char that had no hope of survival. And still it worked.
I at least try to give applicants a rough idea why they have to wait, and that it is just an ooc procedure that they will receive a "you are denied" letter and has no implications on their status or chances of being accepted.

For Asrals, many of the suggested changes are already in place, just with a bit longer wait time if there is active leadership. But personally, I think 2-4 weeks is still an acceptable amount until you get a definite answer.

As for Xogs case, it really was bad luck on timing. I wanted to accept him the day before he got killed, but found not enough time, and afterwards hell broke loose, so it was delayed a couple of days, and then Xog was gone.

[Arsicas]

First and foremost, I want to make sure the applicants get a basic understanding of what it means to be a cleric, has a basic understanding of the world and understands that joining a guild is a major step that has consequences.
Second, I try to get a feeling if the character and his behavior actually fits into the guild and the other players there. There is no good to come out of it if everyone hates each other.
Third, is to see if they are willing to invest at least a bit into waiting and are not just looking to grab some cool features of the guild.

I think these are all important as far as joining a guild and a reason why I wouldn't really recommend quick NPC join. I do agree that simply being denied joining via NPC without explanation isn't good, and perhaps if it's easier to contact applicants, then instead of instant denying, they could get a letter explaining a bit about the guild and the expectations and perhaps skills to work on. Then, if they aren't able to meet with a leader before the week or so is up, they can still join via NPC.

[ceinna]

If the game were a hack n slash, I would say autojoin is great. For an RP oriented one? Nope. I cant tell you how many people have gotten frustrated that PC joined guilds because we forgot to teach them everything right now, I can't imagine the struggle for NPC joins. Part of what makes Geas unique is the lore and RP. I dont think long waiting periods is an issue, if there is player engagement. But sometimes life can be what it is and that can make things hard. But I've seen guilds totally off track from their actual purpose in the game due to a lack of PC involvement.

[Silvie]

I think long waiting periods just will cause people to move onto different games or MUDs where it's easier to get involved in things, I've played MUDs more RP heavy than Geas where you can join guilds from character creation as an entry level, and it works fine. Because people at that level just get basic equipment, skills related to the guild and the name of being in it until another player higher up promotes them.

If people get frustrated because they didn't know what they were getting into they have no one to blame but themsleves and should bear those consequences, but similarly leaving a guild at an entry level should be very low consequences imo. And it would be good if denying an applicant simply auto-mailed the deniee about who to contact to join the guild as I do very very rarely see some guild leaders around IC even if they do deny NPC join apps.

Otherwise I think making guilds easier to join and more open at an entry level is a good thing and I like the suggestions made by Xog for it. It will only help keep new players engaged with the game rather than burning out.

[Xog]

Ceinna, you mentioned hack and slash game.
What do you think telling Xog to train more is?
That is all he was doing constently.
Killing over and over non-stop trying to get skills high enough to be remotely qualified for a guild just to find out that the guild he was training for wasn't anylonger accepting players and hasn't been.
Any guild who tells a player to train to get skills high enough to join them is basically telling them to go hack and slash for a while.
I believe what people calling it these days is "the grind."
Yeah, this is rp, but players want to join guilds, and if telling us we don't have skills to join, then basically we will go kill over and over to get said skills.
At least, if players joined a guild earlier, then there would be more rp involvement along with killing over and over.
This is why I got so frustrated.
I liked the rp, but I spent more time killing then I did rp.
I really wanted to get into a guild, and I didn't want to lose time just hanging around some fountain talking when I could be training skills to get into a guild.
Also, when your a newbie, with skills low enough to only kill nibblers and or kobolds, your not apt to be asked by higher players to go training with them.
That is where I found more rp to be taken place.
When Xog trained with Ceinna, and brand and wrath in the ancient city, there was rp going on along with combat.
The same with when he hunted with Aslak and the Asrals. We talked while we killed.
That was alot of fun.
Lowbies don't get that in the early stages.
So, having access to a guild line, perhaps lowbies wouldn't feel so... alone, or bored with the constent hacking and slashing to get skills up high enough to train with the vets of the game.

A player isn't accepted into a guild until they have worldly experience... all that means is go kill stuff, and get experience under your belt.
That's just another term for hack and slash in my book.

[Delia]

Personally I would like NPC autojoin being a thing and after that you remain as initiate until a player character can process you properly. Sometimes guilds have been empty without no player leadership to get you in at all.

Setting mailnick automatically from character creation is a very good idea and I generally agree that the new player trying to get into guilds should bear most of the work. Trying to get in touch with multiple new faces who do not have mailnicks can be very time consuming for players who have plenty of other stuff to deal with too.

Personally I did not require much rp or established relations when I was a Shao master. I treated white belt as the initiate rank and the time and place where players proved themselves or not. I simply did not care if folks walked away with Shao skills or not. Generally speaking I find it better if folks get into the game faster even if you have to deal with unsuitables as a master.

[Delia]

As a mage master the experience has been different. I have received quite many messages and mail and whatnots OOC asking about mages and what they are all about and I diligently try to answer to the best of my abilities and offer quite bit of extra information. Some people stick and there is quite lot of OOC grooming involved, atleast with me. It is not absolutely necessary but as the mage experience is wildly different from the rest of the game I find having potential mage players being prepared making for a much better experience for everyone involved.

Time periods for joining mages in game are much longer than for any other guild too so naturally we try to establish and explore nice IG relations too and even if I do not play that much compared to other players, I try to make myself available for some guild duties and answer mail and so forth. I tend to favour faceless mentoring quite much as real life, time zones and so forth makes it quite hard to spend quality time in game in the actual same room with other characters.

When someone actually manages to join mages, we send an invite to mage group discord where you can have almost 24/7 help and support. Personally I almost keep this one as my largest requirements for my apprentices. I could hardly keep in touch otherwise.

[Silvie]

I think the mages are similar to the Evils where they are an "Advanced" Guild that inherently requires more RP and Investment in order to join, I feel like this discussion is touching more on the non-mage and non-evil guilds that are much more accessible and less impactful to join compared to these other ones. Though some of them do require some decent amount of ooc mentoring to get a hang of

I think Delia's attitude in the Shao's is perfect though for these other guilds, the starting ranks like squire or white belt should be easy to get into to experiment with and try out the guild, people might walk away but I don't really see that as an issue, Squires can't learn Iron Will in the crusade for example so if they leave they get no permanent bonus.

[Zyphyra]

Giving this a bump.
If anyone was logged onto Geas earlier today, they would have over heard a conversation on the newbie line where a newbie was frustrated because she applied to the Taniel clergy through a npc, and the application was rejected.
She also had spent time with the 2 leaders of the clergy and was told to come back the following day.
They did, but the leaders of the clergy never did come back.
This has been apparently months now, and she still isn't allowed to join the taniels.
She got frustrated and said she was quitting because what was the point of making a character when she can't join a guild.
The conversation continued with the other person stating this was nothing new with the guild leaders and that more times then not, guild leaders just log on enough to deny applications and then log off again.
The newbie stated that "what was the point of applying through a npc if the guild leaders keep denying the application, but then don't play and give time for players to rp with them so that they can join through rp?
I myself hardly see anyone ever around, and I have hung out for hours in each city waiting for someone to talk too, and as I write this, I am sitting in a city for over an hour and the only soul I've seen is poor Gerrit.

There was alot of good ideas in this forum about this very topic, but I don't see any resolution, or any admin opinion on the topic.

[Delia]

Yeah, I tend to agree that people should not be so quick to deny NPC joins. No reason to make it too serious. If someone joins via NPC and messes up, giving the boot is fair game at that point IMHO.

[Arsicas]

Giving this a bump.
If anyone was logged onto Geas earlier today, they would have over heard a conversation on the newbie line where a newbie was frustrated because she applied to the Taniel clergy through a npc, and the application was rejected.
She also had spent time with the 2 leaders of the clergy and was told to come back the following day.
They did, but the leaders of the clergy never did come back.
This has been apparently months now, and she still isn't allowed to join the taniels.
She got frustrated and said she was quitting because what was the point of making a character when she can't join a guild.
The conversation continued with the other person stating this was nothing new with the guild leaders and that more times then not, guild leaders just log on enough to deny applications and then log off again.
The newbie stated that "what was the point of applying through a npc if the guild leaders keep denying the application, but then don't play and give time for players to rp with them so that they can join through rp?
I myself hardly see anyone ever around, and I have hung out for hours in each city waiting for someone to talk too, and as I write this, I am sitting in a city for over an hour and the only soul I've seen is poor Gerrit.

There was alot of good ideas in this forum about this very topic, but I don't see any resolution, or any admin opinion on the topic.

I can see how that would be frustrating. I guess I would say that NPC joining should either not be a thing (if guild leaders are just going to deny applications because they think they need to meet applicants in person) or joining via NPC after a wait period should be acceptable but the first rank of guilds should be more of a “trial” rank universally, where people can join, pick up a few skills, and get a feel for the guild before a PC promotes them to a “full” member, where they can access the guild hall and more exclusive skills/equipment.

I think the latter option would be more inclusive and welcoming to new players, especially if playtimes don’t sync up, so that they aren’t left waiting for ages. And if the first rank is more of a “trial” rank, then guild leaders would hopefully not be as worried about spies or the other reasons they have for denying applications. I can understand wanting to roleplay with an applicant to see if they are a good fit and help them understand what they’ll be getting into by joining the guild, but I also know that real life sometimes gets in the way, or living in different time zones means your characters never cross paths. If we had a bigger playerbase or more characters able to induct new members, it wouldn’t be as big of a deal, but it seems like, if there’s only one or two characters who can induct people and you never see them and can’t join via NPC, the only other option is to join another guild.

[ceinna]

Giving this a bump.
If anyone was logged onto Geas earlier today, they would have over heard a conversation on the newbie line where a newbie was frustrated because she applied to the Taniel clergy through a npc, and the application was rejected.
She also had spent time with the 2 leaders of the clergy and was told to come back the following day.
They did, but the leaders of the clergy never did come back.
This has been apparently months now, and she still isn't allowed to join the taniels.
She got frustrated and said she was quitting because what was the point of making a character when she can't join a guild.
The conversation continued with the other person stating this was nothing new with the guild leaders and that more times then not, guild leaders just log on enough to deny applications and then log off again.
The newbie stated that "what was the point of applying through a npc if the guild leaders keep denying the application, but then don't play and give time for players to rp with them so that they can join through rp?
I myself hardly see anyone ever around, and I have hung out for hours in each city waiting for someone to talk too, and as I write this, I am sitting in a city for over an hour and the only soul I've seen is poor Gerrit.

There was alot of good ideas in this forum about this very topic, but I don't see any resolution, or any admin opinion on the topic.

To be honest - this was a situation where I (as the guild leader in question) have been dealing with some real life stuff. General holiday stuff and then family members (and myself) pretty sick with Covid. She also never mailed me as I asked her to, and I was logging in to check mail as I could at the minimum. I did not mean to leave her on hiatus, but sometimes life really does just happen. This is one reason I think having the discord is a good thing, being able to contact players is huge so things can be worked out or we can determine steps if necessary due to real life concerns. I am sorry this happened though.

[lythande]

I don't think anyone is criticizing Ceinna for having a life. We all do. That is why other players that are not leaders should NOT be subjected to so much scrutiny for wanting to join a guild. And yes, Aslak, many of us players that are trying to enjoy the things this game has to offer are looking to join the guilds because of the cool stuff they have to offer. What other reason would there be? I could understand more screening by leaders if the playerbase was much bigger than it is, but it isn't. I've heard some say they are worried about spies from other guilds joining. Well that would be totally OOC and against the rules, and (as someone IG pointed out) hopefully monitored and punished by Admin. Maybe some consideration should be given to the idea that Main guilds should be limited to one per player. If you want to try another guild, leave it, or reinc, or start over.

[Zyphyra]

Discord might be nice for some folks, but as a person who used to have an account there, left because at the time there was a lot of crap talk and metagaming issues that was taking place.
So, I had my account deleted/removed because I didn't want to know ig stuff on discord that should have been done in the game itself.
This is just me however, for others discord may be awesome.
Ceinna, I wasn't trying to Criticize
you or your husband, but its just a fact because people do have lives that npc applications should be allowed.
That's why there is the 7 day wait.
If a player has waited 6 ooc days, and then a guild leader in general logs on and denies the application then logs back off is just bad.
Not that I am saying this was done mind, I am just using this as an example.
That player could be getting excited and ready to join then to just have all hopes crashed and never know why their app was denied when the leaders aren't around to rp with applicants.
The guild leaders for the guild I am currently have been trying to join hasn't been around in a couple of ooc weeks, and I thought about attempting to join through the npc, but I know that personally as soon as I do, the guild leaders will log on and then deny the application and its not the taniels I am looking to join.
Again, its frustrating knowing that this would happen because its a common thing going on.