Fear of death/torture

[stilgar]

Hmm.. now I'm convinced, Carlos is a professional stuntman

About Naga.. hmm.. hehe.. need the link to my webcam??

We already know from that video what poCathal does when he is kicked around

About torture (hehe, yeah!! torture!! )

From another point of view... There are some characters that REALLY does not fear from death (zealous freaks, like crusaders, devoted priests etc.)
In their case physical torture means nothing, so should be another way to make them fear or at least break down their pride.

I know my next few words will be a bit discouraging for some ppl. but.. as long as RPing something is not supported by code most ppl will avoid it and only hardcore RPers will do it for their own fun. Coding some features (maybe xp-vise beneficial features) would change that in a REALLY short time.

Like this.. ok.. you do not kill someone, but capture him. Want some info from him? Ok, what now? You cannot get anything unless he/she decides to give it away. Then comes the idea.. What about desecrating his guilditems? To do it.. he/she should be alive and present. By doing that he/she could have some drawbacks and the one who does it to him/her could have some benefits

so.. the "something else.." comes into the picture here. Imagine a Crusader walking around in thorn tabard, or a priest with a desecrated symbol. Would mean a shame for them RPvise publicly, so would give the player a good reason to RP out the fear/anger etc. and would give them a good reason trying to avoid the procedure

Just a thought

[yegerfin]

so.. the "something else.." comes into the picture here. Imagine a Crusader walking around in thorn tabard, or a priest with a desecrated symbol. Would mean a shame for them RPvise publicly, so would give the player a good reason to RP out the fear/anger etc. and would give them a good reason trying to avoid the procedure

So what's to stop them just from going to guildshop and buying a new item? Or just throwing 'desecrated' one away? Yes, it's not 'playing along', but that was problem in first place, or?

[Abharsair]

I think roleplaying "fear of death/pain" is a common problem among the players. Most who are threatened with death or torture just spit their capturers in the face and act like death-defying heroes. Sure, people aren't here to play wimps and cowards, but it becomes a bit tiresome to see the same old "You can kill my body, but my soul is free" thing. Unfortunately there are only two possible solutions to that: 1) death and torture becomes a greater punishment by implementing hard-coded negative effects, or 2) people change their roleplay a bit and actually betray secrets or friends when threatened to be whipped or executed.

Considering that the complaints were intense and tedious when we increased several years back the vitality recovery time, I don't think option 1 would be that good. Therefore we are stuck with option 2, and we can only hope that some more people are willing to roleplay fear.

[chara]

Obviously, people will react to torture in different ways, and just about everyone wants to play the hero who laughs in the face of death. However, if your char's DIS skill isn't really high, the char is going to snap under torture. If you've got a low DIS and are playing the "no fear" type char, it's a little bit out of character, no matter how brave you'd like to be.

[yegerfin]

Just an idea i got after chara's post, add a 'torture' command, with about same functionality as 'emote' - perhaps with different coloring to know difference, but one that gets scream/cry/whine/etc from one it's emoted on, depending on his dis... of course, only doable on helpless chars...
Perhaps with cummulative scoring, and optional parameter that would tell how much you actually expect to hurt by that torture line (so first time you won't get effect, or first few times for high-dis chars, but you would get it in time). It might even take some HP and/or kill if you use it too much...

[Falsenroth]

Now its well known that there is a minority of hardcore priests and zealots who can't be broken by mere torture, but comparing it to real life, bodily harm isn't the only way to get someone to squeal.

Torture essentially relies on the "if you don't do this, it will hurt". But what is hurt? Bodily harm? In this case, there are many characters who would not give in because bodily harm is not very significant.

A better model would be "if you don't do this, there will be consequences." Consequences that would not necessarily harm the character in a physical way, but a character is composed of mind, body, and spirit.

In the case of hardcore goodies, they often don't value their own physical well-being, they value the well-being of others, justice, innocence, protection. Imagine capturing a Tanielite, and him not responding to a round of lashing. Physical harm not a value, therefore, no incentive. Instead, why not capture an innocent, perhaps a friend, a subordinate, w/e,
and threaten to ... i dunno... cut out his/her/its throat if he doesn't talk.
Driven by strong personal values, the Tanielite would have a strong incentive to give in, because his job is to protect the innocent or w/e.

In the case of hardcore baddy zealots... well, that's tougher. They often don't care about anyone other than their deity and total destruction and blah blah blah. Hence the strength of evil zealots who love, and care about nothing. As a direct result, nothing - torture, another's torture, losing items, etc, - can break him.

All in all, the essence of my message is not to limit torture to physical harm, but rather consequence, be it a clash of values, the spilling of innocent blood, etc. There's a ton of possibilities.

[chara]

You make a good point about there being more options than just torture. I highly applaud the idea of using these methods to add more spice and variety to the game.

However, if you say that torture is easy to resist, I still believe that you are acting OOC. Any char IC is going to have a problem with torture. Some will be able to master the pain and fear - especially chars who have built up a high DIS, perhaps Shaolins who have trained their minds to overcome their bodily limitations, etc. But playing the big tough guy because you can't be bothered to RP losing a conflict is really poor roleplay, in my opinion. I disagree that bodily harm is insignificant IC.

[venim]

Falsenroth's comments do work. Back when Venim was a satho, Jezz had captured and shackled a Tanielite that never gave a crap what we did to him, but as soon as we captured another smaller Tanielite, the first was puddy in our hands. I can't remember which characters it was, but was a fun day. Jezz got a sacrifice and Venim gave someone a broken head.

[genesis]

What I'd like to see:

1) A Lilithian coming up and capturing a Tanielite.
2) Lilithian taking the captured bastard to a Lilithian Chamber of Unpure Rituals.
3) Lilithian making a ritual, transforming the bastard Tanielite into an orc or something, with a protection that he cannot die (but near death cannot do damage, either)

This'd be sooooooooo cruel. buahahaha

[nogem]

First of all, I will apologize for my crappy rp as I have been learning some things that work, and some things that flat out don't - I was that taniel.

Now - to say that somebody spouting at the mouth and making threats is 'wrong' or 'unnatural' of somebody with low disc to me is a misnomer. While it may in fact be wrong or unnatural for some, many, or even most - that is making the assumption that
A - the person being tortured is in touch with themselves emotionally to the point of being able to acknowledge primary emotions
B - if the person is emotianlly disfunctional their low discipline means the very instant torture begins they will just succumb and beg for mercy (a more emotionally functional response)rather than trying any way they thing they see to lash out in anger

To say it is easy for anybody to just play the impenetrable hero (guilty, damnit, sorry - but haven't for a while cause I learned) and that is why some people spit/cuss/fight with a low disc that should make them writhe in fear is making a very sweeping assumption that all characters will have the same basic phsycological tools for dealing with emotions/stimulations as a matter of discsipline.

I would love to see something disc based that forces tortured players to scream in pain or agony, flinch thier body parts away from torture devices, struggle wildly to free themselves(uselessly), or pass out from the sheer pain. These are all involuntary muscle responses at low mental disc.

I would absolutely hate to see it affect them showing emotion (ie offering information, begging for mercy, pleading for release, being super cooperative).

Purposeful torture is/has always been a physcological process:
Fight or flight are emotional instincts that each of possess, typically with one being more dominant, and both require discipline to overcome when it is appropriate to do so. The undisciplined response of somebody with a fight instinct, especially if they are emotionally dysfunctional (anger is a secondary emotion caused/related to emtional hurt/fear/loss/rejection ) would absolutely be to make stupid threats they have no hope of following through with, spitting, cussing, or any other completely irrational thing that pops into their angry little minds about how to lash out at who/what is hurting them. Of course, were the torture in question to continue for more than a few minutes before a person was cleansed/sacrificed then all might get the benifit of a character who can rp being worn down by the experience. A person with a dominant fight instinct isn't going to reason out to a point of wimpering/whining/cooperating until they are physically/emotionally too exhausted not too, regardless of disc. That would a prime example of how they are failing to resist the torture - irrational words/actions that only worsen their situation.

Or do I misunderstand Disc and being mental discipline/ability to remain rational?

Maybe torture could have a visible effect on mana/stamina?

Anyway, rather than just assuming the present victim sucks at rp - which is always possible - you could try asking ooc if they are planning on being that way no matter what, maybe fill them in a bit on where you are taking the experience (if I think I'm dead at the end regardless, I'm trying to escape/hit back at any chance that shows itself and there goes your whip and release fun when I escape/you kill me), offer them a 'tip' about how boring/weak it is if they intend to stay that way, and then shorten or lengthen your rp with that char accordingly.

[chara]

If you want to roleplay stupid threats while sobbing, trembling, and spitting out blood, you might get away with it. If you are acting like torture has no effect on your body, your RP sucks. If you have a high dis or other related skill - maybe a high meditate skilll - that would give you an IC reason to be able to ignore some high level of pain, that "nothing you do hurts me" attitude might be IC. However, if you are playing an untouchable schmuck just because you don't want to "give in" to the other side, you are acting OOC - and in a particularly nasty way, since it ruins the gameplay for all involved.

[Abharsair]

It's actually quite simple. If capture and torture has no significant effect on the victim, then the other players will consider it a wasted time and effort, and they'll do repeated playerkillings instead. Therefore the choice is basically "roleplay something else than an pain-resistant super-hero" vs. "being repeatedly killed with vitality loss and no to very little roleplay".

[nogem]

I agree with that completely. What I am saying asking is that care is taken to leave some room for people to rp something besides a completely quiverring, whining, instantly mortified, slobbering... and that if players are going to say ooc that there is nothing wrong with them bluffing half the mud with claims of whatever that they be willing to ask a players intent if they don't like how that player is rp'ing what is happening to them since it should be equally ok for other players to bluff as well.

The consideration is only being requested *IF* a system of forced responses to torture is implemented. There is a difference between howliing in pain and shrieking in terror.

If it is all strictly being handled rp wise it might also be poor rp for a little bit of ooc communication to not be given.

Let on that a torture, not a flat out death is on the line. I have seen too many characters, yes my own included, who thought they were being hauled off to be killed end up getting killed when they make a break for it, which only pisses off the people who were trying to rp the torture anyway.

Player isn't responding to the torture in a way you like? Try asking them about it - maybe they wish to be worn down - maybe the player is just *new* to the experience? Don't just assume that if what they are doing isn't what you would do that it is wrong/malicious and you might get to see something cool or help a new/inexperienced player improve their game.