Fighters vs. mages

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vurdijak
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Fighters vs. mages

#1 Post by vurdijak » Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:33 pm

I know the magic system is currently in the works and some parts are even
in the game already. I dont anything about the parts that are in the game,
but I was wondering how powerful magic will be in the world of Geas. In some DnD settings, the mage starts out as weak and eventually gets to be
the strongest type of char. Also magic is prohibited when wearing metal
armours etc. I have seen some muds where the magic users can crush any
fighter with ease and other muds that are the opposite, the fighters always win. Where will Geas fall in this range, or maybe I should ask where should it fall?

Im pretty curious about this new system, not that Vurdijak will ever do much
with it. Unless he can learn a spell to make himself attractive....wait no spell could do that :)

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Delia
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#2 Post by Delia » Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:03 am

I have say that I have absolutely no idea, guess you could look at Asrals and have some idea of combat capability, but as I said, It can be anything.
I'm looking forward for the "utility" spells myself.

I guess a mage using combat spells can be a force to reckoned with if the said mage is proficient in physical combat as well, no use wielding fires from hell if a nibbler can slit your throat with a rusty dagger :P

Oh,just remembered, it should be possible to use scrolls while wearing lots of chainmail so...guess its only heavy armours that are out of the picture currently.
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Alamar
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Magic system

#3 Post by Alamar » Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:19 am

I am also looking forward to the rumored magic system. I have seen a few spells cast, such as those by Jahlad and Delia, but the rest has all been priestly magic. There is a fair degree of balance that needs to be considered of course.

Scrolls in chain might work, but I think that by and large magic should be limited to leather or lighter. Some systems have rationalized this by saying that metals interfere with the channeling of the power, which kind of makes sense. Perhaps mithril might not interfere, or at least do so less, and thus make it more attractive to magic users? Just a thought.

It should take quite awhile to get combat magic, of course, but there should be some thought given as to how it should be learned in the first place. Scribes certainly deserve a more comprehensive magic system, but not all magic is learned by study, and there might be some possibility for "wild talent" and the like. Here I'm thinking of faeries and the like who are known for their magic but own no books (at least in most worlds).

Perhaps an emphasis can be placed on enhancement. For example:

Enhanced speed: lets you attack faster (though maybe it also adds fatigue at lower levels?).
Enhanced vision: lets you see details when you look in a direction. As in "look east" "you see Jezz and Blizt nuking the crap out of one another"
Enhanced hearing: lets you listen into conversations in the next room (a really good spell for a spy!). Or lets you overhear whispers.
Enhanced strength/constitution = speaks for itself
Enhanced skill (improve a skill by 5/10/or 20 for a time)
Enchant weapon - increases the damage a weapon does, or increases the chance for a crit
Enchant armour - to protect better, to be lighter, to protect against certain types of weapons better (arrows for example)
Light spell - a must for every magic system :?
enchant boots - decreases fatigue spent on walking
enchant cloak - increase chance to hide or sneak

Those are just a few examples of non-attack magic that is still incredibly useful. I would also think that identify might be good, except magic items are quite rare. As I said, that's a random selection of ideas.

Spells should be sorted into groups, for example:
Light spells - light, continual light, lightning bolt, searing light, blinding light, whatever
Dark spells - darkness, deep darkness, shadowbolt, etc
fire spells - you get the idea
personal enchantment - enhance speed, enhance strength, enhance endurance, enhance senses, etc.
weapon enchantment - enchant sword, enchant arrows
armour enchantment -
and so on and so forth

The main thing I would suggest is that each group of spells (armour enchantment, personal enchantment, fire spells, light spells, water spells, etc. should be its own skill. This would have one primary benefit, balance.

If a person decided to take up spellcasting he might do so, but most likely with only one or just a few spell groups that would provide a real benefit to him. Perhaps there should be advanced skills for more powerful types of spells, the way that there are improved specials for the shao skills. If someone wanted to learn a huge selection of spells he could certainly do so, but the advancement would crawl along.

An archmage or a powerful wizard would be possible, but only if he sacrificed other skills for his magic and devoted himself to it almost constantly. Such a person would not be able to instakill any player (at least hopefully not -- instant death spells have always been a pet peeve of mine). But he should have a fair chance of holding the fighter's blows at bay and hopefully slashing him up with a few attack spells (the way I've seen Xexo do to me with that exploding ice thing).

More than likely a mage would have to, at least initially, depend on fighters to hold the front line while he launches attack spells from the rear. Later, he might have a defensive spell that minimizes the damage that enemy blows can do (never immune though, that's just cheezy) and he will have a high enough discipline to not lose his concentration from those small blows. All in all a good magic system wouldn't disrupt game balance tremendously, I have not found that clerics are so vastly superior to a non-magic using fighter that they are invincible (and clerics can do some seriously cool things).

If the magic system can extend beyond attack spells to enhancements for other skills, then magic can be tailored to suit the individual character. If magic also uses many skills than it would make anyone think twice about learning too much of it. And if a few people do try to take on a ton of spells, best of luck to them, for they will not be able to wear metal armour, their advancement in other skills will diminish, and if they are not careful they will get spread too thin.

Just a few ideas on how it might fit in and remain balanced. Magic is the staple of any fantasy game and a good, balanced, magic system will certainly bring in some more players to Geas. Please don't take any of this as a criticism or one of those "it's so obvious why hasn't it been coded yet?" kinds of comments. These are meant to be helpful.

for more ideas on magic: the rolemaster series has an excellent system and it is very similar to geas as far as combat goes, in a lot of ways. Right now all the magic is pretty much bound up in the holy characters, and so the world is divided between gods. It would be interesting to see a magic system that forces people of differing backgrounds to come together on neutral ground to do research (Like the towers of high sorcery in Dragonlance where good, neutral, and evil wizards had to coexist).

If anything, Geas' combat system is unparalleled, and if there should be any question of balance it should be in favour of the warrior with the sword rather than the wizard without it. But an unarmoured warrior with a little bit of magic will benefit tremendously from a few enhancement spells.

Okay I'll stop talking. Let's see some magic!

-Alamar

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#4 Post by jezz » Sat Jul 01, 2006 4:19 pm

I don't know how magic will be in Geas, but for what I know from the spirit of this MUD, a wizard won't be able to do anything on his own for the most part and will need a balanced team to be really effective.

That, or the mage will have to think carefully about his strategy and set various ambushes, traps, intimidation, lies to get his foe(s) where he wants.

And insta-death spells should be possible, but under heavy conditions and handicaps, like beeing able to cast that spell only in a room you have prepared for it... preparing the spell for a long time and then just beeing able to cast it for 5 seconds after getting it... Things like that.

A satho can already get a insta-death miracle doing this: charge slay and release it. Charge slay.
Cast another slay knowin your foe will enter
Touch the foe and he eats first slay.
Release slay charged and touch foe making eat another.
Your third slay is charged, you release again and make him eat some more :)

It's not easy but it's possible, and I don't think it's overpowered

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#5 Post by Blizt » Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:47 am

I have no idea what PO Jezz just said
but it SOUNDS overpowered.
Highly doubtful that it is though, considering
I have never seen it used like he stated (yay).
I do agree however, that a mage should be fairly weak by himself, at least in combat. However a good/clever mage should probably be one of the strongest over chars in my opinion, but I dont think a mage vs warrior one on one in combat should be in favour of the mage, unless hes heavily prepared and very smart.
Just my thoughts.

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#6 Post by Delia » Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:27 pm

A fighter will beat a mage for a LONG time, unless the said mage develops reasonable fighting skills also. If a mage is thought of in terms of magical prowess only, its a wonder if the mage can survive a group of nibblers, let alone a few orcs, even with powerful spells. In D&D terms, most of the mages will be "mage/fighters" I think.
What comes to flinging insta-death and fireballs around, well, *snickers*, if most things don't change too much most of the new mages will be in for a real good surprise ;)
Just my opinions and gut-feelings.
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Alamar
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#7 Post by Alamar » Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:55 am

In D&D fighter mages are hampered by a lack of armour, which is somewhat sensible. I think that leather might be allowed and perhaps even scale (so people might actually order it from the custom shop once in awhile). Mithril might also be a mitigating factor, not sure how that will work.

I just would like to see how magic will be balanced with the fighting system which is fantastic as is. And I say that as an elf who loses most of my spars and at least one pvp in a single hit. I'm really looking forward to it.

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#8 Post by anglachel » Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:02 am

Yes, mages will have problems with heavy armours. Metals armours will increase the chance of failurs and behind a point it will be imposible to cast.
Amulets and rings will not make a big effect, but a chainmail willbe a big problem for the mage.

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#9 Post by Delia » Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:21 am

Reviving this topic a bit...after seeing how darkness riled people up quite nicely, how do people think of the mage WITH the warriors against a team with no mage? Imagine the said darkness cast by the mage, but with the added effect of team-nightsight? A single mage vs. fighter can easily result in the mage being fed his own severed limbs, but a good mage as a team member...pure evil...
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#10 Post by Naga » Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:34 am

It would be basically impossible for a "pure mage" character to get by. Putting all your stats in intelligence and wisdom, even with 100 hide and sneak skill, you wouldn't even be able to sneak around the Devil's Garden to harvest herbs without something seeing and attacking you due to awful agility/dexterity. I know this from experience.

I've finally taken some initiative to make Naga more substantial, training in combat, but my goal is for him to remain primarily an intellectually-oriented character, which means magic. However, when inability in other areas interferes with those pursuits, it becomes problematic. I imagine other characters focusing on magic will be the same way; basic combat and stealth skills will be used to facilitate exploration and study.

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#11 Post by Abharsair » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:19 pm

I can only tell you how we envisioned mages to be in regards to fighting power, and whether we will achieve that or not is probably a matter of testing and tuning.

Mages will be - alone and unprepared - no match for a skilled fighter. Just as it should be in any decent setting. If they however have the time to prepare, or if they are protected by some bodyguards (fighters), they will be quite powerful.

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#12 Post by jezz » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:31 pm

Dammit, stop talking about this magic crap already or I'll have to add 20 skills more to my overgrown list! ;)

Just kidding. I'm sure everyone who will pick the magik path will have a lot of fun. Also, I expect many players to become semi-mages, which will add much more variety to the battle techniques.

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