God Changing

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adanath · #1 Post by **adanath** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:59 pm

Adanath is a curious tshahark. He is deadly loyal especially to Taniel. He loves Taniel with all his heart. He kills people if they mess with his priests and he goes to every sermon he knows about and devotes candles every time he can. Yet yesterday after getting just a few miracles to heal and breeze Adanath and fighting an Evren follower Adanath's faith began to switch. As soon as I had the time to stop into the temple with a candle and wait 20 minutes for my mentals to go back up and devoted a candle my faith changed. I do not get to mud much now. Due to work and other reasons. This however, is the most ridiculous thing I have seen in 13 years of mudding. I then get a message that Taniel is very displeased with Adanath and Adan switches to Evren through no will or effort of his own while he is in a Taniel temple devoting and doing all he can to protect priests and do what he can to serve Taniel. This is the worst OOC enforced roleplay incursion I believe I have ever seen in 13 years of mudding. Not only this but Adanath died 3 times to various things and it took me over an @month to get his fitcon *CLOSE* to all the way back up. Now his fitcon because of an unwillful ooc enforced god switch is lower than it was before his two deaths. I believe this should be changed immediately if not more grace given. This is ridiculous. I must say it gives me the motiviation to never play Adan again as much work as I just spent getting his fitcon up then some OOC change makes him weak as hell. What does it look like to him IC? Well he is depressed he has tried to serve Taniel all he can and Taniel hates him now he punished him for serving him. That is what it looks like to Adanath. OOC god changes making him think he is worthless to the one God he ever cared anything about. Perhaps he should go Sathonys now? Of course I am kidding a bit but seriously.

#2 Post by **Abharsair** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:53 pm

Yet yesterday after getting just a few miracles to heal and breeze Adanath and fighting an Evren follower Adanath's faith began to switch

Your account of the story isn't quite accurate. Adanath's faith began to switch prior to fighting the Evren follower, but either you ignored the message, or you didn't read it. However, both possibilities are not the fault of the system.

As soon as I had the time to stop into the temple with a candle and wait 20 minutes for my mentals to go back up and devoted a candle my faith changed.

Switching the deity takes a minimum of 60 minutes. So if you had read the message when it was first displayed (which must have been actually four messages if you say you had only 20 minutes left) and had taken action immediately rather than executing that duel, then you would have had plenty of time to take countermeasures.

Additionally to that the signs in the temples are quite clear concerning on how to find out how much the deity in question favours you. Again, if you don't inform yourself about how much the deity currently favours you (and Taniel apparently didn't like you that much to begin with), don't complain if you then drop below the limit after requesting several miracles from the shrine priest. As a matter of fact, when you switched your deity, you had twice as much faith in Evren than in Taniel, which means that adapting your worship to this situation is not "forced roleplay", but an accurate reflection of your gameplay.

adanath · #3 Post by **adanath** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:04 pm

Even though Adanath was defending the honour of a clergy member of Taniel. Though I must admit it is quite possible this happened due to running around quite a bit I could have missed the messages.

However, Adanath has only roleplayed faith for Taniel gone to every sermon and had just killed an "Evren" follower.

The idea that Taniel would get upset at him as he was devoting a candle and punish him as hard as he did is ridiculous and rather depressed the character of Adanath who was trying his best.

Also the fact that even if there is 40 - 60 minutes when you get the message that is ridiculously extreme compared to the year or more of ic service Adanath renders to that God.

Hey you used a few miracles now you have an hour to either cut out your Evren faith or get massive Taniel faith to counteract. Hurry hurry.

I am sorry that just does not make roleplay sense at all

The reference to 20 minutes by the way was a reference to how painstakingly slow it is for a tshahark to get his mentals back up since they need to be not feeling very well apparently at least to devote a candle *for clarification*

So then since this faith in Evren may be there numerically as twice as much it does not in the least fit Adanaths roleplay. The system fault would be where either devoting candles is too hard to gain faith since you can't just ask a priest for a sermon. Or getting a few miracles takes too much faith for a loyal follower of Taniel.

Logically as Adanath defends the clergy on a daily basis and attends every sermon possible and only occasionally cuts his wrist for Evren it makes no sense.

Especially in the fact that Adan teams with priests goes to sermoons and devotes candles ever since he came to Forostar then all of a sudden Taniel is like bam you have more faith in another God than me I am going to reduce your strength to ashes!

If anything the consequences should be quite less severe and the warning should constitute at least a week ic which would be a logical and reasonable amount of time for anyone considering a switch of faith.

adanath · #4 Post by **adanath** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:24 am

Well I decided I would log on Adan and try and get him back to Taniel so I did. It took 4 minutes and 34 seconds after the first message. I got the messages approximately every 10 seconds and then as soon as I convert once again am made weaker. I now am weaker than I ever was after three deaths.

This is awesome a player accidentally switches to a God loses an asston of fitcon then tries to be devout and switch back as soon as he can and loses twice as much fitcon.

I once again purport my claims at the ridiculousness of this issue.

adanath · #5 Post by **adanath** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:43 am

not to mention roleplay wise if I were to leave Taniel and go to Evren Evren should be as equally pleased with me as Taniel is displeased thus negating such effects.

Unless one god is much more powerful than another.

Which of course contradicts itself when as quickly as you can after the switch happens you switch back and the other God punishes you just as badly.

adanath · #6 Post by **adanath** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:34 pm

I understand the ooc need for consequences and such in order to prevent palyers from being whimsical with Gods. However most players I think are not.

I really think though that the Taniel miracles when asked for use quite a bit too much faith. Also could not the priests be made to preach sermons upon request?

Tatiana · #7 Post by **Tatiana** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:22 pm

I think the problem steams from the fact that faith and favour are expressed as one thing while in fact they're totally different.

Making faith and favour separate would be somewhat logical. A character should be able to have a lot of faith in a godwithout being in favour which would prevent those unmotivated accidental switches.

Different kind of actions should take away/gain favour/faith for example actions that are aimed at dis/pleasing a certain god:
(on the example of Taniel)
listening to a sermon should add both favour and faith,
devoting a candle only favour since you don't believe more by
just chanting some words you know by heart.
stealing should take away favour
killing evil things should add favour
killing good things take away favour

Generally: the faith should express the character's belief*
and favour when you ask the god for miracles or do something to dis/please him

*One should be able to play a follower who has his wrong ideas about a god but he believes he's right, therefore he's not favoured but he has faith
Perhaps it should be up to a player to dedice when his character converts and a god command could be reactivated?

Maybe there could be a way players oocly offer others to rise
their faith when they see that those players roleplayed something
which expresses their beliefs.
This would make the change of faith a reward for roleplay.

Perhaps the easiest solution for now would be to make the pocess
of changing one's faith longer, since a roleplay session after
an event that caused the change can last some time, and it wouldn't
be natural to run off because you're forced by the system to
gain some 'faith' quick, and not desirable either.
Just for our comfort.
:P

#8 Post by **Abharsair** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:09 pm

adanath wrote:It took 4 minutes and 34 seconds after the first message. I got the messages approximately every 10 seconds and then as soon as I convert once again am made weaker.

You got the second time indeed a message every 10 seconds and it was most definitely a bug, so if you prefer it I can reset your lost vitality, set your god back to Evren and you can play out the whole 60 minutes.

adanath · #9 Post by **adanath** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:41 pm

No thank you Abh, It seems however that the system is a bit buggy. However, I would tend to agree with Tatiana's assessment. Adanath continually does work for taniel and does Taniel's work. Now after going back to Taniel he has the two Gods he serves mad at him and is lower in fitcon than he was at 3 deaths. Wonderful. IC he feels just great. In fact even a priest cannot explain to him why the Gods are getting so mad at him for serving him as much he can. Presents quite a roleplay dilemna. Which is why I called it forced roleplay. It forces unneccessary and illiogical situations upon a character. Now perhaps Adanath should leave the crusade. The gods have punished him for doing all that he knows to do as a loyal Crusader. *shrugs*

However, I agree with Tatiana and favour and faith should be different. The ease upon which faith is reduced to ashes is pretty bad.

chara · #10 Post by **chara** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:28 pm

The problem wasn't characters being whimsical with gods - it was them ignoring the actual gaining of faith because they simply didn't have to worry about it. Sit down and listen to an Asral sermon? No problem! After all, it helps my friends, and doesn't hurt me any. I'm a Taniel follower because I typed it with the God command, and who I spend my time actually worshipping is irrelevant!

I'm not saying that Adanath played that way, I have no idea - but a lot of people did. The actual worship of gods was something that wasn't much cared for, unless you happened to bbe in the clergy or need it for another reason.

It is much better for the most worshipped god to follow the actions of the character, rather than an OOC command like the God command was. It is true that the system could include a lot more stuff to influence favor and make worship more deep, and hopefully it someday will. But for now - this system is much stronger and more IC than the previous one was.

chara · #11 Post by **chara** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:42 pm

I should say, the reason for the faith system change was not because people were being whimsical with changing gods. Of course, that is one reason wh the penalty is necessary.

Delia · #12 Post by **Delia** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:21 am

I still haven't encountered any problems with this new system with Delia. She has listened to sermons of others deities priests a time or two and even tried out a few offered miracles. She has a good thing going with *insert god here*.
The system offers some things to safeguard your faith too, although they fringe on abuse a bit. You can always just go eliminate your faith to other gods by asking all the miracles you can from other highpriests. Well...as I'm not at all sure HOW to get rid of unwanted faith other than this ( and outright killing things ) perhaps it is a good idea to ask for a miracle from other deities highpriests if you suspect your "unwanted" faith has rised. Ok, RP-wise this is plain silly of course, I mean of course you ask favours from YOUR god, not from others

But with a crusader bordering between Evren and Taniel some working of the mechanics is alright I think.

adanath · #13 Post by **adanath** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:22 pm

Really it is quite bad roleplay to go around and ask other gods for miracles just so it drops lower than the desired god. I mean think about it just a second. Ok thats long enough. You should lose favour in your god for such things not faith. I agree completely with Tatiana. It makes no sense and Tatiana couldn't even explain to Adanath IC why Taniel and Evren were mad at him. Why? Because it makes no IC sense with his actions. *shrugs* Which is why I termed it forced roleplay. It forces a character to do things outside of normal roleplay in order to avoid ooc consequences. I might add that this struggle is exceptionally hard with a Crusader Tshahark who is required to keep faith in both Gods. I wish he would not have *faith* in Evren but just in taniel and had favour of Evren. This would make a lot more sense since Adan sure respects Evren and sacrifices and such yet he does not choose to follow Evren as his God.

rex · #14 Post by **rex** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:55 pm

adanath wrote: I might add that this struggle is exceptionally hard with a Crusader Tshahark who is required to keep faith in both Gods.

Maybe for Crusaders (and other guilds, if there are any in the same situation) there should be no penalty for switching Gods between Evren and Taniel. It is the rules of the Crusader to have faith in both Evren and Taniel, so it makes no sense to be penalized for changing Gods when your accually supposed to believe in both Gods. Possibly if you have a signifigant amount of faith in two Gods, your characvter will have faith in two Gods?

chara · #15 Post by **chara** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:41 pm

rex wrote:It is the rules of the Crusader to have faith in both Evren and Taniel

I thought that it is in the Crusader rules that you must have faith in Evren OR Taniel. I am not a Crusader myself, so I might have missed something - does it say somewhere you have to have faith in both?

Blizt · #16 Post by **Blizt** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:56 pm

Yes, it says so on the Crusader board, because it makes no RP sense to just have faith in one. Both Taniel and Evren are the ones helping Crusasders, so why would they simply ignore one? Because its more convienent to them oocly to keep them from switching gods?

Considering all of this, if I accidentally start to switch gods, and there is nothing I can do about it to stop it, I basically just ignore the messages after that.
There is no way Taniel would be made at a Crusader for switching to Evren, and vice versa.

The only rule stated is that you must follow one or you get expelled.
All players since I have joined, have tried to get alot of favour in both gods as well. Just because its not a stated rule, it makes the most sense that you should have faith in both.

When we raided the thieves guild, we didnt see a rule that said "You must steal" but its pretty much implied and basically understood by all.

Alamar · #17 Post by **Alamar** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:22 pm

Seems like Crusaders should have a special devotion to "The Lord and Lady" which makes a lot of sense to me. Instead of having favour with both they should have some kind of a system where they are completely devoted to both...

Dualism would hardly be a problem in that guild... sort of like the trinity in Christianity (not strictly monotheism... you can't have one without the other).

Just a thought,
Alamar

Delia · #18 Post by **Delia** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:06 am

I was pretty much going to suggest a system of "follow both Taniel and Evren" for crusaders. It would make sense for me atleast.

chara · #19 Post by **chara** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:32 am

Actually, it doesn't make much sense to me at all. Each of the gods is actively seeking followers to strengthen themselves and to advance their own interests in the world. Some have alliances - but that doesn't mean that it doesn't matter to one if a mortal leaves their service to follow another. A mortal who switches from Taniel to Evren literally weakens Taniel and all of his followers - you don't think that He would consider that important? I am sure He would rather be betrayed for Evren than for Sathonys, but that doesn't mean that He would be happy about it. And vice versa.

I see the Crusaders as a group of closely-knit allies, but still as separate believers in two gods.

I believe that followers should respect and support the allies of their god, but to think that it doesn't matter who is followed seems really strange to me.

Delia · #20 Post by **Delia** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:17 am

Guess there is nothing but just devoting oneself to just one of the gods as a crusader...My crusty-knowledge is based on Delia's so its basically nothing. I had the impression from IC that they were required ( more of less ) to "follow" both the gods. Bow to one, moon the other. Guess there is no helping it.