OOC commands

[Abharsair]

Greetings,

I would like to discuss a possible change of the OOC communication commands (@say, @chat and @whisper). Before I explain what I have in mind, I would first like to explain the why.

A while ago we had an increasing usage of @say which was used for trivial chatter (e.g. "<OOC> Xyz: Yay! knife++") which pretty much ruined the atmosphere for those who actually tried to immerse themselves in the world and the roleplay. A somewhat related thread to that can be found here: viewtopic.php?t=351

At this point we had a wiz-internal discussion to restrict the usage of @say altogether, but we decided to go an alternate route by adding @chat in the hopes that this would separate drivel from relevant information, such as explaining syntaxes to newbies. This worked, but rather than decreasing the OOC chatter it only increased it since several people understood it as a carte blanche to discuss politics, personal life and computer hardware while sitting at the crossing. After all, why was @chat introduced if it's not supposed to encourage chatting? And to make things even worse, people were bugging newbies and other players who had @chat turned off to turn it on, which is a quite unacceptable behavior and an immediate turn-off for people who come to this mud because they read "roleplay enforced" in our listings.

Needless to say, this situation displeases us wizards greatly. We try to create a game with a intense, immersive, and coherent fantasy atmosphere, and discussing the newest MySpace fad in public places just doesn't fly with this atmosphere.

Since repeated warnings by our PlayerArch seem to have had no or only very limited effect, I have proposed the following changes:

Usage of @say, @chat and @whisper will be limited to a certain amount per time interval. If the usage quota is exceeded, the commands will be locked. If enough time has passed, the commands will be available again. OOC-areas would be exempt from this, which means that you can have OOC discussions in those areas without any limitations. If this measure doesn't curb the discussion of trivial OOC chatter, we would then reduce the quota or remove those commands altogether, but I hope we won't be forced to do that.

Please note that this is so far only an idea of mine and several other wizards. It's not decided yet and I would like to hear your opinion first. Reasonable arguments will be taken into consideration when we are about to make a decision on how to proceed.

Abharsair

[Vargrahim]

I am all for removing them, for a number of reasons:

1) As you say, it should be up to the player to control what OOC comments. I am one of those who prefer to play with "@chat off". It might be "boring", but I can also truly feel the difference of the increased fun since it enables me to "live in" the world better. That is the reason I play.

2) I have the feeling people pretty much use other chat programs anyway, speaking with their fellows. So, why must there be a possibility to speak to eachother OOC in the game?

3) I have a couple of times used the @whisper command to someone else, but only a few moments after I thought "Maybe he did not want to hear that?" and regret. Even with good intentions, I think you can spoil some of the fun by accident. On this "accident" point, I would also like to add that people sometimes accidently use @say where @chat was appropriate. Either they did not understand that only important messages goes on "@say" or it was a typing incident just from lazyness (it's so much shorter..) - I don't know which. It could also be that someone thinks it "really didn't matter that much".

4) Something that annoyed me more than the "yay skill+" comments is when people actually speak about something that just happend in-game or comments on the actual ongoing situation. It just sucks away all the fun. I long for the time when "a huge IC event" takes place and there is no OOC commenting on it (that I have to hear).

With all this being said, there is just one problem: It is good for the MUD if people also can speak with one another in an OOC manner. I think there is some value in it, for the players as a social group, and for the MUD because of the increased interest that discussion brings. So people must be able to initiate new contacts and add eachother to contact lists etc so they can discuss. I have an idea that would perhaps work well together with the "Remove them altogether."-option, partly borrowed from another MUD I was on. The system they had there was similiar to Geas, with an OOC area. But you could there type "link <playername>" and the player would get a big, visible message "XXX wants to see you in the OOC area". That way, one could initiate contact with another, but not in the face of others. One could possibly steal that solution with an addition that one may only do it "x times per y minutes" to avoid spamming.

Either way, I am for some kind of restraint of use.

[Vargrahim]

Just another comment on the downside of "x lines per minute" options is that it really only takes a comment or two to ruin the atmosphere, so the gain might be too little.

[chara]

The problem I see with removing OOC commands altogether is threefold:

1. Some OOC commands are, I believe, helpful for explaining situations that wouldn't make sense IC. I.E., @Sorry, my computer just crashed helps to clarify that when a character totally ignored another one, it had an OOC reason and not an IC one.

2. Newbies, in particular, occasionally need OOC syntax help, and this is a reasonable use of the OOC command.

3. I am afraid that if OOC commands are removed, people will continue to talk OOC, just without the clear distinction.

Therefore, removing the @chat and @whisper commands might be a good idea, but I would still be in favor of leaving @say.

I do believe that some degree of OOC chatting is nice for community building, but when it's so easy to go to the OOC area, I fail to understand why people insist upon doing it in-game.

Another thing that really bothers me is that over and over again, I've seen people get upset by people acting IC on OOC information (whether it was true or not). I just have to wonder - why do these people spread sensitive IC information OOC? Dude, don't talk about your internal guild matters, the plans to raid blah, or your secret obsession with Yanna OOC, and those problems are sharply reduced. That's just common sense.

[Vargrahim]

Just a thought: If the "@say" command is kept, rename it to "@important" or something..

[Abharsair]

Just another comment on the downside of "x lines per minute" options is that it really only takes a comment or two to ruin the atmosphere, so the gain might be too little.

This is true. But reducing the amount of OOC chatting significantly would also drastically decrease the chances that it ruins someone's gaming experience. Since the OOC commands can make sense in certain situations I am opposed to removing them altogether - for now. A removal is technically the easiest and fastest solution, so we can always consider this option if a quota still doesn't solve the problem.

...and the player would get a big, visible message "XXX wants to see you in the OOC area".

It's not a bad idea and similar to an idea I had when we started to think about this topic. Making meeting and chatting more convenient in the OOC area is something I am not opposed to. After all, our goal is not to reduce the player-to-player communication, but to improve the overall gaming experience.

[chara]

Just a thought: If the "@say" command is kept, rename it to "@important" or something..

Hmm, might be something to consider, too...

[Devi]

I think a bit of focus is in order. It seems that there are two major problems:

1. @chat pollutes public spaces
2. ooc discussion ruins the atmosphere in general (including @whisper)

Abhs, you seem to be saying that the problem is 1, but your solution addresses 2. Am I missing something?

I agree wholeheartedly with 1, but I think 2 is much more open to question. An option to avoid receiving @whisper might be appropriate, but I don't understand tossing it out entirely.

Chat clients -- Some of us (myself included) don't use chat clients. In fact, I despise them. I also like to know a bit more about (and bond with) the other players. Community is important, and I feel like I don't have the time to have a dedicated discussion in the ooc area. I probably shouldn't partake in @chat in public spaces, and I would probably appreciate that being outlawed.

Vargrahim, are you saying that you play with @chat on or off? Do people @say the atmosphere-destroying comments? I find that very few people dare use @say. I think the reliance on @chat stems from the previous debates about @say and the complaints surrounding it. Honestly, I'm terrified to @say anything, even if it seems important to me. What if it isn't important to someone else? I wouldn't want to ruin the game. People @chat things like afk all of the time, probably for the same reason (or maybe out of laziness?). More people would be able to play with @chat off if @say weren't so imposing. Does anyone else share this opinion?

IC information -- this is a problem that stems quite heavily from the aforementioned chat clients (at least I think so). I don't hear much sensitive ic info in @chat or @whisper, for example. No one would want to be caught.

If the problem is @chat pollution in public spaces, we could simply ban it in public spaces (no @chatting at the crossing(s)). Removing them is only a solution if the problem is that in-game ooc chat is invariably evil.

[jezz]

The reason for people chatting in public places (crossroads) and not going to OOC area is because that way they can keep chatting happily about the new video on youtube and still be ready to type "kill evildoer" when he/she enters the room.

Or to simply greet another chatter who comes to the place. That way you get the best from OOC and IC, which is a poor reason to do so, but ey, that's how it goes.

I vote for completely remove OOC chatting outside OOC area, although I'll miss my comments on "yai! swing reached 100!"

[Abharsair]

1. @chat pollutes public spaces
2. ooc discussion ruins the atmosphere in general (including @whisper)

Abhs, you seem to be saying that the problem is 1, but your solution addresses 2. Am I missing something?

I didn't say OOC discussions are bad per se. But they are bad within the IC environment. You can talk OOC all you want while being in the OOC area, but telling others that Coke is better than Pepsi while you kill trolls, or what you think of the most recent Naruto episode while sitting at the crossing just doesn't belong into a roleplay enforced mud, @chat command or not. If you want to discuss those things, go where you don't disturb anyone, and that's the OOC area.

[chara]

One problem (of many) is that people sit around chatting OOC, waiting for something to happen IC. This is destructive to the atmosphere of the game, even if others can't hear the chatting, because it prevents people from being proactive, prevents them from roleplaying, and prevents them from reacting to the roleplay of others. Imagine you walk into a room where a bunch of characters are sitting around silently, and barely reacting to you, because they are so caught up in their invisible discussion of the part of chickens in the role of global warming, or what the heck ever.

If you're sitting around with a group of other characters, why not chat IC? Talking about your _character_'s days, opinions, thoughts, etc. instead of your own would greatly enhance the atmosphere while promoting fun.

I don't much like chat clients, either, and I use them only when forced to; but it simply doesn't make sense to me to say that there is time to chat, but not in the OOC area. The couple of seconds it takes to go to the OOC area are not really significant. Chatting OOC should be handled OOC, in the OOC area, to keep it separate from the game and to intensify the in-game experience of you and others.

[Vargrahim]

I use @chat off. In my experience it happens that I get these @say's anyway, perhaps it is just me.

Perhaps it was wrong of me to drag the messengers/OOC-IC-separation into the discussion - it is after all what the Geas MUD offers itself that is important. We could get into a large debate there, but I think it is better to avoid it. Messengers are pretty much a fact that won't change.

Anyway, I think banning chatting only in certain rooms will have too little effect since it can still happen in other rooms. But, I agree with your (Devi) idea that @chat might be okay since you can turn it off, and likewise turning off @whisper might be sound. There remains @say.

Chara, I do agree with point 3, but I think the newbie-line might solve point 2. As for point 1, it might be addressed with such "link" system in the OOC-area, although it might not be satisfactory enough, so perhaps my idea was not so good after all.

EDIT: 3 posts snuck past me..

[Blizt]

I will admit I am guilty of using excess OOC comments and talk more than I should. . Now with this being said, lately I have been getting annoyed at the amount of OOC talk I witness. Here is a small example, and its not really exaggerated.

Characters A B C are at the crossing.
I walk in.
Character A says something somewhat witty IC, he then follows up by 6 lines about it with @chat.
Character B responds IC, then follows their IC comment up with 3 or 4 lines with @chat.
Character C says noting IC, but responds with about 4 or 5 @chat lines.


The amount of OOC talk I have witnessed lately has been possibly twice the amount of IC talk.

I guess I won't mention that during one of those times, the players said if someone didnt like their ooc talk, to leave the room, because they had lots of catching up to do, since they haven't spoken to each other in a while.

[Tatiana]

Removing a possibility to use OOC say commands will just result in people bringing up OOC stuff with IC whisper command - as I've seen it done on other muds such as polish Arkadia. Or just using 'say OOC: '

I think what Abha proposed is a good solution

[Abharsair]

Removing a possibility to use OOC say commands will just result in people bringing up OOC stuff with IC whisper command - as I've seen it done on other muds such as polish Arkadia. Or just using 'say OOC:

That's possible. However, it's easy to add a rule that this is illegal and to then enforce it. But yes, I would prefer a less "strict" solution such as the one I proposed.

[tessa]

This wouldn't be a problem if people were more responsible. Unfortunately I've became a part of the problem from time to time too, but I try to avoid it as much as I can. And I don't think it's good form for people who should be examples for others to promote ooc chatter when they could be doing something more productive.

I'm for removing @chat and @whisper. @chat has just promoted more OOC talk everywhere, and I'm finding it harder and harder to be around the usual crossing/arborea marketplace/asral temple crowds without over half of the conversations being about OOC things either totally unrelated to the mud, or related to it, but discussing everything from an OOC standpoint instead of IC.

@whisper does sometimes have its uses, but really I have to wonder if it's something you want to say to one person, should it really be something you should be discussing in the first place? Even so, I don't see what would stop people from just going into the OOC room for a moment to discuss it and then pop back out. I guess the biggest problem is because people don't want to wait that long boring 30 seconds to go there.

I like the idea of being able to send a person a message that you'd like to meet them ooc for a moment.

As for @say, I'd like to keep it in the game, because sometimes there are times when an ooc message might be important (IE; thunderstorm, I might lose power and connection, gotta go afk to clean up a mess, etc.), or when you might want to help a newbie out with random commands or game information.

But I think the biggest reason people do it in-game, is yeah, they're too bored and lazy to do anything IC, so they want to sit around chatting OOC until something comes up or some bad guy makes the unfortunate mistake of walking by. They don't want to RP, but they don't want to miss out on anything either, so instead of going to the OOC room, they turn the IC atmosphere (almost always a public room tons of people walk through, mind you) into an OOC one so they can get the best of both and the bad of neither.

[Devi]

The more everyone talks about getting rid of the commands, the more and more I like the original proposal.

Going to the ooc area *is* pretty inconvenient, actually, especially if it's just for a one-line question or comment ("are you feeling better?" "I hope your date went well.") A delay would allow that stuff but disallow the drawn out conversations.

The newbie channel definitely helps ease the burden of @say and @chat. Unfortunately, a player is kicked out after a while unless he becomes a helper. I have also noticed that helpers can be a bit snarky. Both of these problems may be misconceptions. If they're not, they get in the way of syntax help and the like. If it's not already the case, perhaps we could allow every player (regardless of age) to use the channel to ask questions? Even I get confused with the syntax for blocking, for example.

As for the ooc channel (edit: I mean "ooc area"), I have mixed feelings about it. I always have trouble explaining the shadow stuff when my character comes back. Other players try roleplaying it sometimes, which is frankly inconvenient. Justifying ooc stuff icly always feels uncomfortable. Also, the delay seems a bit long, but I can be pretty impatient.

[Delia]

I like the limiting the use of @commands...there are too many situations where its actually beneficial for all parties to have a channel where they can convey information directly from player to player, like telling the urgent need for leaving and so forth, but we've all seen where unrestricted use has lead to . With power, comes responsibility and its TOO easy to give in to your evil, chatty side...

[Abharsair]

The posts and also the poll results made it pretty obvious that most people are in favor of curbing the OOC chatter. Therefore we decided to make the changes described in this thead.

[Alamar]

I have been guilty of spamming screens with @chat in the past. After a rather embarassing slip that forced me to lose my ability to use @chat I now realize how senseless using @chat is (That's a quote from Drake). In my opinion, most of the information about syntax and other "ooc" information be communicated IC.

"Do not throw the heads in the pit, just "toss" them in"
"Maybe you should search bushes instead of tree"
etc.

Much information can be communicated IC and does not require @say or @chat, although helping newbies definitely requires it sometimes.

I like the new changes. My only complaint is that I cannot "toggle @say off"

-poAlamar

P.S. I was looking around at various Mud sites the other day and made an interesting discovery. Geas is one of the very very few muds who make roleplaying "Mandatory"... most "encourage" it, but Geas makes it "mandatory."

In my opinion it is the roleplaying, more than anything else, that strengthens the game and makes Geas unique. The changes support that and it will make all of us better roleplayers.