Some observations from a newcomer... (long)

[Lyrael]

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[Lyrael]

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[tessa]

I do agree that things are far more fanatical than they used to be. I remember the days when groups of people from all sorts of guilds, religions, or etc. would gather around the crossing to chat, laugh, and generally have fun. It almost seems those days are mostly over now, at least for the time being. I agree that it seems like there's few characters anymore that just live life to live it, and a ton of characters now that seem to have some hidden motive or goal to accomplish, and things are definitely far more political and fanatical than they used to be.

I agree that some things have improved since the older times (for instance, darkelves and sathos not being marshmellows or accepted by everyone as cute and cuddly people, like they used to be at some times that I remember), but I think other things have not. That is, a lot of people being critical about others, and people being pressured into taking one side or another. Or people being way to quick to jump the gun about people (that newbie was seen with Alamar, he must be a satho spy!).

But, I don't think that's a fault of the mud at all. I think it's more a matter of some players being a bit too involved in "winning" the game, and less involved with just trying to have fun with their fellow mudders.

[Delia]

Good to hear from new players, hope you stick around too! If you have ideas towards making the game more newbie-friendly, I'm sure the wizzies will appreciate if you share any ideas you might have on this forum or with the report system.

Not ALL characters are about cloak&dagger or religious zeal, but there are some of those around too. I agree that currently it can be trying to get in to a guild, as very few high ranking players have been around, but some have had to wait for ages even with many players around just trying to prove themselves. Depends on the guild(and the current leadership), really, hopefully that doesn't put you off too much.

[Vargrahim]

Things like guilds also bother me - I realize that you never need join ANY to experience the game - however most players want to and enjoy this aspect of games like this - and to make one dependent upon other players' schedules, personal opinions and preferences is not very new-player conducive or retention inspiring imho. I can see being just an apprentice (peon in guild) but to deny membership in a guild completely, without player intervention, I personally think is a mistake. People have real lives, differing schedules, and often times just grow bored or involved with other things and disappear and I don't want my character to not enjoy the game because the person who happens to be in charge of inducting new members is on vacation for the next two months.

This has always been a problem. Each guild is somewhere between 0 and 4 active players (mostly 1), if you are lucky, one of them is the leader. Quite oftenly in history, there was noone around to accept you. Just to take a recent example, I had wanted my character to join the alchemists and at the point I met someone who could invite the reply I got was something like "but you will probably just leave the guild after while" (because other's had done it). You're completely in the hands of other players, which I could also "sign" on, because I had characters in the past who were also completely left out to other. There is even yet downsides of having less time to play, I had myself had complaints "I was never around", which I felt was kind of unfair since I do have an OOC life too, which is primary to geas.

1. It seems to me that almost every instance of RP I've been a part of or on the fringes of has been very "heavy" - typically centered around religious preferences, and felt very fanatical and forced in many instances. There doesn't seem to be a lot of room for the carefree romp of "i'm just an everyday half-elf who likes hunting, singing and hopping around in trees." Everyone seems to be "in charge" of some great, deep plot and there's little time for pleasantries over a mug of ale that doesn't lead to interrogations, political or religious posturing, etc.

This is also true, the game has a lot more focus on that now, but it is because it is more PvP set-up than it used to be. In the "old geas" system there were no crusaders and no order, instead there was a legion. The legion was a warrior guild, but it was very "loose". Still, I think a lot of people liked it better how it was. Now we have Crusaders/Order set-up against eachother, and there is lot of PvP emphasis such as closing/opening certain portals etc. The "old Geas" was much more character centrered while the new one is more a "good vs evil" setting. The Crusaders are for example, by definition, quite extreme. As Tessa said, it has some improvements.. but IMHO the drawbacks were worse from the change (a few players I used to know left because of the changes). My general feeling is that for example the legion days were more liked. The problem stems from a lack of definitions for common ground and history which, to an extent lacks motivates for the existance of guilds (e.g. the legion).. and the crusaders and order were introduced (they have clear goals). IMHO, this doesn't solve the problem of lack of history.. but anyway, this new stance pretty much rid the "neutral" players.

The lack of documentation is overdone in my opinion - I realize that wanting to have some things be part of the process of discovery within the game is the goal, I think there's a bit of overkill on this. It is a text environment (granted, an extremely well done one) and I shouldn't have to hunt and research zealously to find out simple things related to my characters basic starting steps and/or survival or early skill gains.

Once again, I agree, I always found the documentation poor. I can understand noone dedicates time to fixing it, though...

[chara]

The problem with guilds needs to be looked at from the other side as well. Would you really want major guilds to be forced to automatically accept every player who applies? What if the person is clearly not in alignment with that guild's goals, is untrustworthy, is a spy for another guild? For the major career guilds, I think it would be something like having everyone who applies automatically accepted to the police. Even if you threw people out later, a lot of damage could be done before it was stopped. So I don't think that another method would be good for the major guilds. Having more people online would be the best solution

Now, we have talked about allowing people to automatically join the smaller craftsman guilds, such as alchemists and scribes. I think that would be a good way for players to be a part of a community and have something interesting to do, without taking away the autonomy of the career guilds.

[Sairina]

I think the problem of having only fanatic good and fanatic evil characters would decrease a bit automatically with a bigger playerbase. As it is right now, you're rather expected to take sides in the conflicts arising, or so I feel, because if you don't, well, then you can play alone.

The first thing my second char is asked in *every* discussion over and over again, is whether she's a Tanielite (probably because of the ears). And that's after she got a more neutral name... *sigh*

About the guilds, I don't know if there wouldn't be a way to check automatically if the player fits, like if he worships the right god for the guild, or how he is liked by the NPCs in the town? Anyway, being able to get into the crafts guilds would be a major improvement already, and after all, I don't see any reason for those to be that restrictive.

[vurdijak]

I agree that automatically allowing people into guilds would lead to abuse and decrease the sense of accomplishment of getting in. However, guilds run by players in my opinion should have rules governing acceptance. Since Geas is a game, and not everyone has the same amount of time to devote to it, I think no player should ever have to wait more than six OOC months for an answer, yes or no, to joining a guild. I can see how Chara's reasons for not accepting a person are acceptable, but still a definite yes or no should be provided either right up front or within 6 months time. [/quote]

[chara]

Vurdijak, what happens if a character is not ready to join a guild at the moment but might be in the future? What if the guild is divided from within about whether the character would be a good addition and needs more time to decide?

Remember that no player is ever force to enter a guild. If they feel like they have waited too long, they can decide for themselves whether they want to keep waiting or go in another direction.

[Vargrahim]

Just a question: What if major guilds would accept players automatically? Let's say some of the basic things were required, such as proper alignment, city reputation (somethig you'd have to work up a bit), karma, god of choice, etc. Throw in a "quest" too which takes some time, just to filter the simplest attempts at getting into the guild. You would get into the lowest rank, with basic gear and more or less completely unprivileged. What scenarios are actually the "dangerous" ones? I think it's worth digging a bit deeper into the negatives, I think it might be a good trade-off.

[chara]

I think that taking away a major guild's ability to determine who is and isn't allowed to join removes a good portion of the community of that guild. I think it would be detrimental to the guild and potentially to new members who would do it. Having new Crusaders with no idea of what the guild is about and how members are expected to behave would be a horrible idea in terms of atmosphere, in terms of having a guild identity, and in terms of even the meaning of having a career guild to begin with.

Like I said, alchemists, bards, scribes... these guilds would make sense. Crusaders, Clerics, Order members... no way.

There might be some ways to smooth and simplify the acceptance process, but doing away with it altogether is just not something I can see happening.

[vurdijak]

"Vurdijak, what happens if a character is not ready to join a guild at the moment but might be in the future? What if the guild is divided from within about whether the character would be a good addition and needs more time to decide?

Remember that no player is ever force to enter a guild. If they feel like they have waited too long, they can decide for themselves whether they want to keep waiting or go in another direction."

The above is Chara's post. For some reason I cant figure out how to use the quote button. This is an answer to that post.

If character is not ready at the moment, 6 months OOC is enough time to get ready. After that point if they are only say 2 hours old, then they really dont want it that much anyway. Is this what you mean by 'ready'?

If the guild is divided from within, 6 months OOC is plenty of time to come to a yes or no decision.

As for it being a players choice to say when they have waited too long...its true that a player can decide for themself what to do. But if a player has decided to take his char. in a certain direction, and the guild leader wont accept them, after six months its only fair to tell the player 'no, sorry, this isnt going to happen'. Lets remember that although this is a game, players have a lot of emotional investment in their chars and deserve to be given a yes or no so they can move on in the same direction or start on a new path.

6 months OOC seems to me like plenty of time for guild leaders, even mostly inactive ones, to make up their mind. How long is that in Geas years, maybe 3 years?

[rex]

As for it being a players choice to say when they have waited too long...its true that a player can decide for themself what to do. But if a player has decided to take his char. in a certain direction, and the guild leader wont accept them, after six months its only fair to tell the player 'no, sorry, this isnt going to happen'. Lets remember that although this is a game, players have a lot of emotional investment in their chars and deserve to be given a yes or no so they can move on in the same direction or start on a new path.

6 months OOC seems to me like plenty of time for guild leaders, even mostly inactive ones, to make up their mind. How long is that in Geas years, maybe 3 years?

If I had to wait 6 months to join a guild (2 months is even alot) I'd quit personally. Sure, its fun trying to get somewhere with your char but having that long of time without any progress seems a little disapointing and seems to me why lots of chars quit early on.

On the other hand, I know many Crusaders that have been accepted to early (1-2 weeks) and have quit 3 days after joining which is also unacceptable. A median needs to be found inbetween the two.

poRex

[chara]

Vurdijak, I believe that is up to the players involved. If it takes more than 6 months - or 3 months - or 1 month - or 1 day - to make a decision, the character involved can simply stop when he is tired of waiting. What's the point of having a "rule?" Would you want to say that after six months (and how would you even calculate when that starts exactly?) that they are never allowed to enter the guild? Shall we hard code that? I find it hard to see any point in this at all.

[Sairina]

I think that taking away a major guild's ability to determine who is and isn't allowed to join removes a good portion of the community of that guild.

Considering that the "community" of guilds as is sometimes consists of 1 person, I can't see how.

Would you want to say that after six months (and how would you even calculate when that starts exactly?) that they are never allowed to enter the guild? Shall we hard code that? I find it hard to see any point in this at all.

I think that if the players involved in the decision didn't make up their mind after half a year, even with a lot of work from the candidate involved, then I don't think it's ever going to happen. And then it's more fair to tell the player "No", then still "I don't know, maybe" - consider, this is after half a year OOC!!

And there should be definite rules about who will or will not accepted - I'm afraid that since Geas is a roleplay-enforced MUD, putting things entirely into the character's hands makes the whole thing rather incalculable - considering that a character might not be allowed into a guild he would fit in because of resentments another character has against something he represents - or said character being forced to decide positive against everything he believes in (yet without a set rule telling him he has to do so). One person may decide what direction the whole guild is headed to, and I don't think this should happen. There should be such a thing as guild rules that are laid down and have to be followed. Otherwise we end up with Taniel-believers not being allowed into a guild because the guild leader character is an Asral-follower and hates Tanielites ICly.

[chara]

Considering that the "community" of guilds as is sometimes consists of 1 person, I can't see how.

Really? That's odd, because I don't know of any career guilds that have only 1 member in them. And removing any sense of purpose or community is really not the way to expand them.

I think that if the players involved in the decision didn't make up their mind after half a year, even with a lot of work from the candidate involved, then I don't think it's ever going to happen. And then it's more fair to tell the player "No", then still "I don't know, maybe" - consider, this is after half a year OOC!!

I think that the one situation that I know of that you might be referring to is an ongoing situation that is really between the people involved. I'm certainly not going to discuss or debate IC happenings involving other players on a public board, and I am also not going to pretend that this is a general statement anymore.

And there should be definite rules about who will or will not accepted - I'm afraid that since Geas is a roleplay-enforced MUD, putting things entirely into the character's hands makes the whole thing rather incalculable - considering that a character might not be allowed into a guild he would fit in because of resentments another character has against something he represents - or said character being forced to decide positive against everything he believes in (yet without a set rule telling him he has to do so). One person may decide what direction the whole guild is headed to, and I don't think this should happen. There should be such a thing as guild rules that are laid down and have to be followed. Otherwise we end up with Taniel-believers not being allowed into a guild because the guild leader character is an Asral-follower and hates Tanielites ICly.

Err.. that's where the whole roleplay thing comes in. That's why the guild can elect their own leaders. If the leader they have elected is choking the guild because he's not accepting new members, they can - and should - get rid of him. And wanna-be's can agitate for this to happen. Removing all roleplay in order to have the wizards dictate how players behave is not something that either wizards nor players really want - until a rare situation pops up where it would benefit a specific player, and then it is suddenly called for.

If you have a specific problem with a specific player, then you should follow the channels set up for dealing with it - talking to the Player Arch or the Admin - instead of trying to replace roleplay with wiz-enforced regulations.

[Sairina]

I'm not trying to replace roleplay with anything. I'm just trying to say that guild rules should be at least definitely decided on (by a counsel of players of said guild) and put down to be followed in every case - so that situations where someone says "but you will probably just leave the guild after while" or "my character doesn't like you character's ears" cannot happen. Rules that state for example that a character will be accepted when there's not certain thing speaking against it, or that he will be accepted regardless of his race/gender/religion (depending, of course, on the guild). I'm not saying that this isn't the case right now, I can't judge that as I never applied for a guild, I'm just seeing a potential problem there.

Also, I did not refer to any particular situation that has happened, but just to Vurdijaks statement that there should be a certain time OOC (let's just say it's 6 months) after which the player should be told either no or yes. I guess he might have been referring to something in particular, I definitely wasn't.

I think someone recently said on the board that the Shaolin had 1 active member at one point, I'm not saying this is the case right now in any guild, and I can just accept what's being said, since I haven't been here for a long enough time to judge this for myself.

[vurdijak]

A rule would put a cap on the amount of time a guild leader has to consider a candidate. I agree with Rex that a middle ground is desirable, but also agree that because these guilds are player run, that middle ground is only achieved in the best of situations. The two worst extremes are allowing someone into a guild immediately and not giving them an answer after 6 months. Do I think something should be hard coded? I think most could agree thats not the best solution. No what I'm speaking of are guidelines written for leaders of guilds to stick to (known publicly), so that the players at least have that to go by when designing characters and attempting to take them down certain pathways. The point here is to let we players make informed decisions when choosing to invest so much time into this world. Certainly better roleplay can help to make acceptance or denial that much more meaningful, but one thing better roleplay can not do is prevent abuse. I consider abusive to deny someone an answer on guild membership for over six months. Is six months arbitrary? Well aside from half a year yes, but I think this time frame allows guild leaders ample time to make up minds and chars ample time to get ready.

[chara]

A rule would put a cap on the amount of time a guild leader has to consider a candidate. I agree with Rex that a middle ground is desirable, but also agree that because these guilds are player run, that middle ground is only achieved in the best of situations. The two worst extremes are allowing someone into a guild immediately and not giving them an answer after 6 months. Do I think something should be hard coded? I think most could agree thats not the best solution. No what I'm speaking of are guidelines written for leaders of guilds to stick to (known publicly), so that the players at least have that to go by when designing characters and attempting to take them down certain pathways. The point here is to let we players make informed decisions when choosing to invest so much time into this world. Certainly better roleplay can help to make acceptance or denial that much more meaningful, but one thing better roleplay can not do is prevent abuse. I consider abusive to deny someone an answer on guild membership for over six months. Is six months arbitrary? Well aside from half a year yes, but I think this time frame allows guild leaders ample time to make up minds and chars ample time to get ready.

I'll reiterate, since you apparently didn't read my earlier post - this is about *one* situation that should be kept between the players involved, and I won't discuss the happenings of other players on a public board with people who aren't even involved. Or do you know of a string of incidences where there has been a similar problem?

[Vargrahim]

If I had to wait 6 months to join a guild (2 months is even alot) I'd quit personally. Sure, its fun trying to get somewhere with your char but having that long of time without any progress seems a little disapointing and seems to me why lots of chars quit early on.

I completely agree here. I mean, come on. 6 months! Talk about shutting people out. Do we want new players or not? I wouldn't wait for 6 months if you gave me new TV-set! And requiring so much investment from a new player is just silly. It'll never work. Take it to 6 days and we're talking.

Perhaps that's just me, perhaps I'm not "serious" enough... yet I'm here and playing.