Questions regarding religious changes

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endellion · #1 Post by **endellion** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:43 pm

Im curious about the religious changes, especially how it will affect those guilds that are made up of numerous different faiths, such as the ShaoLin and the Rangers. Im not quite sure how it will work and what the various religious tensions are. I know as a follower of Gwen, she hates Asrals... But there might be times when Endellion would need to do so because of her RP within her temple... I understand the reasons for the changes, but I got frustrated after only an hour of playtime caused a switch...

poEndellion

Delmon · #2 Post by **Delmon** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:04 am

To Wizards:Do you think you could explain the system of religion changes and such? Most of what I read is "your actions affect your religion." Fair enough. I just don't "get it."

There might be a problem with this system. What about actions not coded to affect "who you worship." "Who you worship"is based on what type of actions (worship) you do towards that god. I don't understand if favour affects who you worship, or if karma affects it as well and what actions affect karma versus favour.

Why does teaming with others effect who you worship. Right now, I believe all guild members of guilds who have different religions inside them are screwed rp wise AND stat wise (wraths) because they cannot team without a serious change of favour with their god. The gods know all, yes? So they should know the motives behind the actions. Unfortunately, no amount of code can account for motives. Just because a taniel teams with an asralite shouldn't nessacarily mean the taniel is turning evil or neutral, or that the two of them are drawn to worshipping a different god. Honestly, I don't understand the system, reasons, ect. Please please explain!

Why does favour and karma affect who you worship? Is favour= to good actions judged by the god? Is karma the same? Honestly, I'm confused.

Ok, let's take Delmon as an example. (I'm going to share a bit of rp info, so if you don't want to know everything, don't read on). Delmon was turning lilithian for RP reasons. (ok too late now!) He killed a priest to get an amulet. He wore the amulet and drunk the blood from the fountain( as a favour increase). I never, to my knowledge, recieved messages telling of a change from asral, which he had been a follower of, to lilith. One day I suddenly saw "you worship lilith" in the score screen. I assumed it was the amulet doing something. *shrug*. I then suddenly recieved messages saying you are drawn to worshiping no god. I said to my self ooc "heck no!" and tried to rapidly gain favour of lilith. It didn't work, and basically, I saw the worship/favour/karma system laughing at me with each message (

) until I finnally worshipped no god and lost something like 5 levels of stats because of lilithian wrath. I DID, however try to explain this change to myself. I had, before the messages of drawn to no god. killed goblinoids. This, I guess would lower favour and karma and then lead me away from lilith and towards I suppose no god worship. Which brings me to ask questions. Why was I changed to lilithian worship in the first place with such BAD favour if I was just going to convert away immediately because of favour??? To me the "cursed" symbol should bring people TO lilith and keep them FROM changing, regardless of favour and karma. I hate to get my stats screwed like that, for one. Second, to me ooc, I tried to rp a lilithian. Am I now to "make up reasons" why I follow no god?

The easy way around this is to say IC that I was "punished" by lilith and will try to do better next time by not killing goblinoids. But that still doesn't explain WHY I am now worshipping no god. I honestly don't know what to do.

tessa · #3 Post by **tessa** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:31 am

The religious tensions are easy. The gods oppose the gods of the opposite alignment, with their counterpart being the most hated, and they get along fine with gods of similar alignment. So:

Taniel opposes Lilith primarily, and Sathonys and Asral secondary.
Cooperates with Evren and Gwen.
Evren opposes Sathonys primarily, and Lilith and Asral secondary.
Cooperates with Taniel and Gwen.
Gwen opposes Asral primarily, and Lilith and Sathonys secondary.
Cooperates with Taniel and Evren.

Lilith opposes Taniel primarily, and Evren and Gwen secondary.
Cooperates with Sathonys and Asral.
Sathonys opposes Evren primarily, and Taniel and Gwen secondary.
Cooperates with Lilith and Asral.
Asral opposes Gwen primarily, and Taniel and Evren secondary.
Cooperates with Lilith and Sathonys.

Zhakrin gets along with everyone (boring guy).

Speaking as a Gwennie Shaolin myself, I would say as a faithful follower, you'd really want little to have to do with Asral worshippers anyway. And in the case that you do, then I would say Gwen might not be the most compatible god for you. Keep in mind that the rivalry between Gwen and Asral is up there with Lilith/Taniel and Sathonys/Evren, and you never (or at least, shouldn't) see faithful followers of two opposing faiths having a picinic together.

As far as RP goes, you shouldn't ever have to worry about a situation where you'll be dealing with a Lilithian or Sathonite Shaolin, either. Not to mention, Shaolin aren't as closely-knit as other guilds, and most of the members tend to be independent from one another, so I'm not sure of many scenarios where you'd need to team with an Asralite. At least, from personal experience, Tessa's never had a situation where she's needed to team with an Asralite.

So, all in all, I don't think you'll find many religion-tension problems with the Shaolin. Just avoid people with conflicting beliefs, or convert to something more compatible with your roleplay.

vurdijak · #4 Post by **vurdijak** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:38 am

What if you dont know someone is a follower of an opposing god?

Is it safe to assume that its not safe to team with someone, if you dont know who they worship? Does this include talking to them or socializing without being in a team?

Olrane · #5 Post by **Olrane** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:24 am

I'm not sure how much this affects people, so I don't know if this is mostly whining or not. From what I have read, this is just a push in the right direction from the wizzies. For instance, it's really hard to play a Lilithian. Not only do you have to try to hide it from others, but losing the goblinoid enemy base is just something that most players are unwilling to do. If you want the benefits of being a Lilithian (and there are some clear, coded benefits, if you want to discover them), then you have to roleplay for it. It doesn't sound like a bad trade-off to me.

As for the partying with opposing worshipers...since the more god-intensive recent year or two here in Geas, it's a rare character who can conceal his god or have no god. Most characters will not have a problem figuring out the worshiped deities of others, so that's not much of an excuse. Again, if you are only willing to take the benefits of a religion without the consequences, which include shunning members of opposing ones, then perhaps you're not much of a follower after all. There is a category for that - god none - and if that's what your character is, go for it.

I'd like to make one more point, and I know I'm probably annoying some of you by agreeing with the wizzes here. Since the more recent additions to the god-system, many more favour/karma affecting actions were made obvious. So, when you are receiving the messages about god change, THEN is the time to act. The wizards have cautioned you as such, and from what I hear, the messages persist for a full hour of in-game time.

So, for example, if you find yourself devoting to Sathonys (to perhaps unfairly use a game example that I thought was poorly reacted upon), it is not very difficult to make a sacrifice or two to Taniel, or if able, to Evren, to counteract this favour change while not necessarily devoting to either of them. However, as the wizards have said time and again, if you hold a deity in high favour, there is no chance to accidentally convert. Don't be a statistic: there are things to do, so no accidents should happen.

My two cents,
poOlrane

Olrane · #6 Post by **Olrane** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:35 am

I just thought to add that due to the increased importance and emphasis of religion in Geas, there should be an extended help section for newbies (or at least a note within the newbie area, the newbie help-guide, and/or the "newplayer" page to also see the pages for favour, karma, reputation, etc.

I don't know how much should necessarily be explicitly said, but I think it's important that newbies know a few things.

-resting during a preach is active listening, and also, that standing or leaving is a way to not be affected
-spending time with or teaming with people, especially people with extreme favour/karma/reputation will affect them
-highly maintained character-god relationships are stable and not subject to sudden change
-favour gained in opposing gods also causes a loss of favour in the first god

Also, they should be directed to the helpfiles for each god, which I think are very good in explaining the gods' domains, and implicitly, their enemies and archenemies.

tessa · #7 Post by **tessa** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:51 am

Here is an idea: If you rapidly lose faith with the god you're worshipping, by teaming with someone who worships an enemy god, perhaps you could get a message like 'X is angered by your actions.' or 'Your deity looks disfavourably upon you.'

This way, if you team with someone without knowing who their god is, you can know something is up and change things before it becomes too dangerously late. Whereas the being drawn messages happen when you've already lost the faith in your god, or gained too much in another, these messages would let you know you're still safe, but are quickly approaching the converting point.

EDIT:

Second idea: Make newbies immune to god faith and such at first, until they are X days old or so. Perhaps the same with reputation/karma, and so forth. This way, they aren't penalized for doing things that they weren't yet aware of, and have a chance to learn and understand the world they're in, before it starts to affect them.

Olrane · #8 Post by **Olrane** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:20 am

If Tessa's idea is implemented, I think 2-3 days should be the max for a newbie god-safe time.

Olrane · #9 Post by **Olrane** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:38 am

To Delmon, regarding specific questions:

Favour determines which god you worship. It is gained through sacrifice, hanging out with highly favoured people, listening to preaches, etc.

Karma, on the other hand, is if your actions as a whole are pleasing to your god. Karma determines more if you're a good follower. For example, one might make meticulous sacrifices to Taniel, but be a lying, thieving jerk whenever no one can see him. Taniel does see him, and he will have bad karma with Taniel. However, Lilith might find him to have great karma, she loves a thief. Regardless, this will not affect his worshiped god, it will only be a determinant of a good or bad worshiper, and therefore very important information to clerics and such who want the god's opinion.

So, as a Lilithian, it is imperative that you do sacrifices, not kill goblinoids, and not hang out around Tanielites - these will affect favour. It is not imperative that you steal, kill the innocent, and rape virgins. But these will help your karma with Lilith.

eirikeld · #10 Post by **eirikeld** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 4:45 am

I believe that the help files should mention the resting while preaching part. I have been under the assumption that preaching no matter what would affect you. I had seen it said that "only if you listen" was the case, but had seen it not to be. I am happy to hear the real reason, finally, but think it could be mentioned somewhere in the help files. If it is, then I apologize in advance for failing my literacy test.

poEirikeld

#11 Post by **Abharsair** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:46 am

The system is not really that difficult to understand. If you team with a follower of your god's enemy, you anger your god. If you do it long enough, he no longer wants you as a follower. But unlike some of you think, it is not really that strict as you expect, which means unless there's the logical combination of extremely good vs extremely evil deities and Asral vs. Gwen, there's not much trouble to expect (since the changes were implemented, only two cases of team-based favor loss occurred).

In Delmon's case it was a bit special. Since he used the amulet, the deity change to Lilith was done via the amulet, not the favor system. The effects of the amulet are very old, though, and well-known among some of the older players for years, and sometimes it's just not a good idea to use something you don't know enough about. Anyway, after he switched to Lilith, he lost favor with her due to certain actions. At which point ALL of the gods hated his guts, and voila, he was drawn towards no god at all. All fair and square and not even related to the team-based favor loss.

Lastly, concerning some of the suggestions, yes, newbies up to a certain age are exempt from this system, as they already were with reputation. And in regards to a better documentation, sure, better documentation is always good.

Delmon · #12 Post by **Delmon** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:47 pm

The effects of the amulet are very old, though, and well-known among some of the older players for years, and sometimes it's just not a good idea to use something you don't know enough about.

That's unfair. These are ooc questions and answers. I knew it would change me to a lilithian(that's obvious) but I didn't realize that it wouldn't stop me from changing away. I also assumed it gave at least some favour to wear something like that. And, orcs and other goblinoids themselves attacked me as a lilithian, which defeats the whole "don't kill goblinoids or your favour will drop" plan. "Oh, by the way, they can butcher you at eat your guts." Furthermore, drinking blood from fountains gave me favour and it seems the only way I could gain favour(I may be wrong???), but the messages of turning to a follower of nothing still came. So as I was trying to gain favour rapidly by poisoning myself and waiting around meditating for the effects to reset and do the drinking again, I turned to no god. It takes around 20 minutes to make another sacrifice, and personally, I feel like I've wasted more than enough time.

tessa · #13 Post by **tessa** » Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:34 pm

Delmon wrote:And, orcs and other goblinoids themselves attacked me as a lilithian, which defeats the whole "don't kill goblinoids or your favour will drop" plan. "Oh, by the way, they can butcher you at eat your guts."

You know the goblinoids follow Lilith, which is why you shouldn't attack them. They, however, don't know you follow Lilith as well, so they'll attack you without discretion. There are ways to fix this, but IMO it's better learned in the game.

Delmon · #14 Post by **Delmon** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:21 am

To me the "cursed" symbol should bring people TO lilith and keep them FROM changing, regardless of favour and karma. Second, to me ooc, I tried to rp a lilithian. Am I now to "make up reasons" why I follow no god?

The purpose of my posts was to get a better understanding of the system. Thanks everyone for your help so far as well as patience.

Questions:
1. So technically, if I remove the amulet and then put it back on, I should turn back to lilith? I infer that the reason for the stat loss due to changing gods is so that people don't change gods frequently. Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose if I just change back...? If that is the case, then am I to make up reasons for following no god?
2. Perhaps the amulet should be changed slightly. If the amulet causes you to change to lilithian regardless of favour, then perhaps it should KEEP you lilithian regardless of favour. I know what you are going to say: then, with the amulet, you could kill lilithians with no consequence! well, favour could be lowered...(we know the consequences of that) or the amulet could simply prevent you from killing goblinoids!
3. Perhaps all goblinoids should recognize lilithians(like a sense or something) so that your favour doesn't drop because of ignorant orcs(remember lilith should know all and would know that the goblinoids attacked your character first)
4. Perhaps there should be a quick OOC message warning for lilithians telling that you are attacking another lilithian and ruining favour. That way there would be less confusion.

5. Perhaps there should be a way to regain stats/score by gaining favour of that god who dished out "wrath." This would completely clear all problems with ooc annoyance of god changing.

tessa · #15 Post by **tessa** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:34 am

I would say if you're having to put so much work and effort into a god that just doesn't seem to be fitting with your roleplay, perhaps you should look into a god that is more compatible. The evil gods are purposely hard to worship, to prevent any normal joe from worshipping them without fitting into the evil theme.

aragog · #16 Post by **aragog** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:29 am

I agree with Tessa that it shouldnt be all that easy to worship evil gods like Sathonys and Lilith, but on the other hand it looks a bit as if worshipping Lilith is made unnecessarily hard currently, as the temple is in the middle of that camp (perhaps there's another shrine somewhere, which is...not more easily to access but perhaps not surrounded by orcs and goblins) and if your sneak/hide is not in a good shape, you'll probably loose more favour finding your way in than you can gain with drinking the blood there.

poAra

tessa · #17 Post by **tessa** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:03 am

Well, it's actually not too hard, if you know what to do. I'd rather not disclose the information on the forums, but rest assured that the Lilithian religion is not as hard as it at first appears, once you know your way with it. The same is probably with Sathonite religion; hard to do on whim or without a light to go by, but appears much easier once you're on the other side.

Delia · #18 Post by **Delia** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:49 am

If that is the case, then am I to make up reasons for following no god?

Well, your char angered the gods for a reason or the other. Given gods are gods and mortals are mortals I see no reason why your char could not be as confused as you about all that

Olrane · #19 Post by **Olrane** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:35 am

To Delmon:

I am not absolutely sure about this, but you seem to think that the Wrath of God effect is a permanent statloss...If I'm correct, it's about equivalent to a death, and your stats do recover. It is just, as with a death, reinforcing the idea to not allow god changes to happen frequently.

Concerning the problem with the amulet:

Within the new god-system, it doesn't seem fitting or fair for the amulet to instantly change a character's god without at least giving them some buffer in the way of favour. I acknowledge that I don't know everything about the situation - my assumptions here could be wrong. I would like to suggest a new way to handle the amulet to be more fitting with the current system.

I propose that the amulet be modified do one of two things: either do the instant conversion as it has done, but start the character with about medium favour with Lilith in order to not let them easily slip out of favour, OR give a significant amount of favour with Lilith, and cause some negative effect (such as a temporary stat penalty, with appropriate messages) to non-worshipers, as an incentive to either remove the amulet or to seek Lilith as their god.

Olrane · #20 Post by **Olrane** » Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:48 am

Just reiterating something, because I felt I left something out of my last post:

I absolutely DON'T think the amulet should keep you as a worshiper of Lilith, as Delmon said he would have liked. I think that would be an unfair safeguard of god change with this current system, which was implemented as a way to force a character to constantly earn his god status by maintaining a good relationship.

Instead of an OOC (or OOC-ish) message that says that you're angering Lilith by attacking goblinoids, I think that a very logical IC warning could be coded in, although it might not be easy. Sorry to the wizards for constantly proposing code additions to an already overwhelming workload - it's the price of idea spawning.

The amulet, as I understand it, has a sort of living drop of Lilith in it...and if I remember correctly, it chokes the unbeliever and coerces a conversion. It would be fitting, then, that the amulet would tighten around the neck of the misbehaving believer, as when attacking a goblinoid. This would be natural, roleplayable, and would give newbie Lilithians the push in the right direction that they might need about something that they maybe would not have known. Although it is giving them a freebie - other religions don't get such a warning - I think that it's fair because it is such a difficult religion. Either way, it would require that they wear the amulet in order to be given the warning.