the "new" sathos

[Zengo]

Perhaps for you.

Obviously not for some others.

That is if you were a true Zhakrin follower, because you would also be doing evil deeds as well. Just like a Lilithian.

The key is not to be openly visible while doing it.
I know some people that are doing just fine following Lilith.

[Delia]

Have people really pondered what the dwarven society really would be like if the zhakrin faith were as scheming and manipulative as people make it to be? I'd imagine the dwarven culture is as close to Zhakrin as elves generally are to Taniel(not speaking of all the rebellious PC's out there, but the solid backbone of society, NPC's) and the dwarves do not really seem that cloak and daggery.

Or was I just manipulated all along?
*shrugs*

[tessa]

I don't agree with the "You must commit just as many evil deeds as good deeds to maintain balance and neutrality" concept of Zhakrin. To me, that's more chaotic and evil. Which might be why almost all of those types of Zhakrinites are the "ally with Sathos, fight Crusaders" types that eventually convert to Sathonys.

'Balance' has a tendency it even itself out without intervention. It could even be argued that the constant interference in natural balance is chaotic and counter-productive in and of itself.

I've always considered neutrality to mean being open-minded, seeing both sides of the coin, considering the results, reasons and so forth of each side, etc., before making a decision. This doesn't, however, mean being completely impartial to good and evil, or law and chaos. The average person in GEAS is considered 'neutral', but leans more towards good/law than evil/chaos.

I think the dwarves of the Underground are the best examples of Zhakrin culture. They aren't good, but they aren't evil, nor are they chaotic. They would definitely be a 'lawful neutral' sort.

[stilgar]

Nice to see your opinion about Zhakrin. And about Balance. In my point of view, Balance must be maintained as ALL other forces are against Balance. Saying Balance maintains itself would be like saying: "Evil or Good can never win over the other" which I'd consider a "true neutral" point of view . In my opinion there are two possibilities: Balance so the struggle can go on or the end of the world when one side wins.

I don't think so there would be teachings about how to maintain Balance, but for sure, if you live in the reality of Forostar, it should be obvious that you either act from behind, or spend your time being chased and achieve less than nothing.

Things could greatly change if there would be some code support for this "actively neutral" side too. Of course, coding them would require a lot of thinking about game balance, as currently the basic concept favours beeing either good or bad (while the mainstream of developers thinks so, which is neither good or bad, simply a fact ). As the whole PvP system based on this concept, without a serious re-thinking and testing the implementation would only ruin the game for a lot of people.

[sun]

Yes, actively neutral is a nice thing as opposite to passively neutral. I'm sure it could be played in a good way, although I would personally find it hard RP-wise to do (opposed to hard as in people always hating/chasing you as a crusader/satho). The primary reason is just because I personally have so hard to see what role these people can play, as a Zhakrinite/Asralite/Gwennie. It usually means each individual player has to come up with some sort of reasoning/lore to motivate his actions which mostly isn't enjoyable for others because they can't see it, unless they do it really, really good. So, I personally prefer something better anchored..

The neutral concept "touch nothing, be neutral" might be theoretically okay, but it doesn't produce a game. And that is also not what I would count as active neutral, which I find a good thing. I would also agree that more support for playing actively neutral would be a good thing, and then I mostly think about more goals, lore and so on for this group.

[tessa]

Balance must be maintained as ALL other forces are against Balance. Saying Balance maintains itself would be like saying: "Evil or Good can never win over the other" which I'd consider a "true neutral" point of view

Saying all other forces are against balance is an interesting concept, since without these other forces, balance wouldn't exist. But where does it need to be balanced? In the thousands of years that Forostar has existed, balance has never toppled to one side or the other (it has leaned back and forth, which is always temporary, but never completely pushed to one side), and there hasn't been any known neutral forces to take credit for it. So, balancing needing to be necessarily maintained by neutral forces can be an arguable point (plus, it's mortals against gods in this scenario).

And the belief that good and evil would keep each other in check naturally is a true neutral belief, yes.

The primary reason is just because I personally have so hard to see what role these people can play, as a Zhakrinite/Asralite/Gwennie.

Gwennie traditionally sides with Taniel and Evren. I don't really consider Gwen a neutral god, but more of a good one- just not as extreme as Taniel and Evren (aka, a lesser good instead of a greater one). Gwennie seems to lean more towards good than Asral does evil, her ideal karma falling in the middle of what Zhakrin and Taniel/Evren seem to prefer (whereas Asral leans closer to Zhakrin than Sathonys/Lilith). Plus, with the additions of karma, opposing faiths, and etc., causing incompatibility with those on the evil side of the spectrum, Gwennie's leaning towards good has become even more prominent (especially with the strong animosity with the biggest neutral patron- Asral).

Things could greatly change if there would be some code support for this "actively neutral" side too. Of course, coding them would require a lot of thinking about game balance, as currently the basic concept favours beeing either good or bad (while the mainstream of developers thinks so, which is neither good or bad, simply a fact ). As the whole PvP system based on this concept, without a serious re-thinking and testing the implementation would only ruin the game for a lot of people.

This actually sounds very much like the Asralites to me. Asral has a permanent rivalry with Gwen, and on and off rivalries with at least four of the remaining five gods (possibly even with Zhakrin too, if he wasn't so vague and faceless), and tends to flip between favouring good and evil, often depending on which is the weaker side. Though he leans slightly towards the evil side, Asral has a tendency to not care about good or evil, and seems to do whatever he thinks is best at the time. He and his Warclergy also have the strength to stand toe to toe with the good or evil sides and walk out of it.

So, I see Asral as the more chaotic neutral sort that does the balance-maintaining, whether it be intentional or not, and Zhakrin as more of the 'true neutral' sort that acts like an enlightened mediator rather than a flip-flopping conflict-starter. And, for the sake of completing the DnD alignment grid, Gwen would fall under the 'lawful neutral' category that doesn't actively partake in the battle between good and evil, but favours the good guys over the bad guys when drawn into the conflict.

[stilgar]

Saying all other forces are against balance is an interesting concept, since without these other forces, balance wouldn't exist.

Balance = stillness.. the moment anything else starts to exist.. its against Balance. That is how the different deities emerged in the same time with their proper oppositions after Zhakrin

In the thousands of years that Forostar has existed, balance has never toppled to one side or the other (it has leaned back and forth, which is always temporary, but never completely pushed to one side), and there hasn't been any known neutral forces to take credit for it.

Not known does not mean nonexistent... see my above reasoning about how Balance should.. and poDelia's reasoning about how could be maintained

So, balancing needing to be necessarily maintained by neutral forces can be an arguable point (plus, it's mortals against gods in this scenario).

You forget about Zhakrin's presence.. I'd say everyone on his own level.. I'd never say any Tanielite or Sathonite would fight directly against the opposite side's deity Why should a Zhakrinite do so?

[tessa]

Balance = stillness.. the moment anything else starts to exist.. its against Balance. That is how the different deities emerged in the same time with their proper oppositions after Zhakrin

By that logic then, true 'Balance' would be a void, or lack of any existence at all.

Not known does not mean nonexistent... see my above reasoning about how Balance should.. and poDelia's reasoning about how could be maintained

The UG dwarves aren't the "maintain the Balance" sort of neutral. They're the "let the rest of the world do whatever it wants, we're just going to keep mining and eating rocks" sort of neutral.

I don't think Delia was suggesting that's how it could be maintained, either. I think she's pointing out the vast difference between PC and NPC following of Zhakrin.

And yes, unknown doesn't mean non-existent, but Zhakrin and his followers have been pretty inactive in the grand scheme of things on Forostar. And 'sneaky manipulation' falls more along the lines of Lilithian trickery.

You forget about Zhakrin's presence.. I'd say everyone on his own level.. I'd never say any Tanielite or Sathonite would fight directly against the opposite side's deity Why should a Zhakrinite do so?

Apparently the 'maintain the Balance' types are trying to put a complete stop to the growth of good or evil to make things stagnant, which would require putting a stop to most of the gods. And unlike Tanielites or Sathonites (who they would be opposing), these types of chars don't have godly support (Zhakrin is completely inert, whereas Taniel and Sathonys are not).

[Herst]

Lets just get rid of Zhakrin. Call him a farce, and replace him with something more fun.

[Grindel]

Many things said here are exactly what the average dwarf would ask his priest; and interpretations ranging from "keep out of things", "fight for the weaker side" or "balance is stillness" vs. "balance is constant struggle", or "forces work against balance" vs. "every force is a part in the struggle for balance" are what needs to be discusses IC. So, for more, please do ask Grindel IC.


Getting rid of Zhakrin would be the worst you can do to geas, and keeping Zhakrin whithout a player run clergy is just short of that.

Zhakrin could offer so much more gameplay and different views, even in comparison to the already implemented asralite clergy.

It often seems that neutral players are considerd boring and a lot of you would like to see them go for good, if one reads your posts here. I disagree of cource and don't think Taniel vs. Sathonys is enough for an interesting game, which is what it usually leads to, these days. The game is quite dominated by this; and as these two extreme views get more extreme every day, it keeps narrowing the possible gameplay.

Zhakrin could be an opportunity for different kinds of neutrality. Be it a fight within the followership on how to pursue balance, or in a way to intregrate some shades of grey between the current forces in geas - which is what it needs, imo.

[Naga]

Zhakrin took being a hermaphrodite sorely, and offed Itself in a particularly passive, balanced sort of way, neither too seized with emotion, nor overly inclined to destruction, nor reason, nor self-preservation for that matter. Anyway, his hip, teenage brother, A-Krin stepped up to the plate. And he has a RAD attitude! He thinks you're cool, too, and you can just call him Krinny, which is the name he goes by when he does his X-TREME divine works, like furthering HARD-CORE neutrality, and GENERATING the race of dwarves EX NIHILO. CAN YOU HANDLE IT?

[Herst]

Well, from what I have seen on the MUD for a long time is that people seem to follow Zhakrin and do the sneaky evil shady manipulation game. This if course fits Lilith more than Zhakrin. So to me, it seems that most of the players find him unplayable.

I remember arguments from some players a year or more ago. "Oh, the good side is too strong, we must maintain the balance through Zhakrin and sway the tide of things" then they would go around and trying to manipulate things for the evil side to gain the advantage, without even physically getting involved in the struggle. So once again they were acting more like Lilithins than anything else. Unless of course, Lilith and Zhakrin go hand in hand. Every person I have encountered that tried to get involved in the mud and that did not use Zhakrin as their cover to ignore everything around them draws this same conclusion.
They "must maintain the balance without getting directly involved" yet they always consider the "good" side too powerful and only help influence the balance towards the evil side, leading to a chaotic chain of events (resembling Lilith)

I will go ahead and use my own argument here, and say that just because I don't see Zhakrin followers in action, does not mean that they do not exist, and are not doing what they are supposed to.

Then again, I will use an argument I have already used. If they are influencing things in a sneaky manipulative way, they are acting more like Lilithins than anything.

I think that in world of Geas, Zhakrin doesn't really fit, or is unplayable.
I think the past actions of the majority of his followers show that.

Just my personal opinion.

[Herst]

Here, I will give a very simple but effective example.

Say a Zhakrinite hired an assassian to murder someone. Probably some guards, or a good person considering they hired someone to do it. They would be influencing events through a sneaky manipulative way and not getting involved visibly. This goes hand in hand with Lilith again.

Now, say they wanted an evil person dead (which they may, but I have yet to see from them) they would have a hard time hiring an assassian. Why? Because plenty of people would do it for free, and those that would take a payment probably wouldn't kill their friends. As well as the fact that the good side constantly targets the evil side, and they would eventually die anyways. All the Zhakrinite would have to do is feed the goodie info on where to find the evil guy. This is not doing a good deed at all. This is using information to obtain exactly what you want, the death of an enemy. Once again, closer to Lilith than anything, and not really maintaining any sort of balance.

At no time did the Zhakrinite do anything that benefited the good side, except pass on information to benefit themselves personally. During both incidents, the Zhakrinite resembled a Lilithin. If he had visibly involved himself both incidents, he would be hunted by both sides probably. Leaving that character in some trouble, and possibly never able to show his face in public again. So he influenced the events in a sneaky manipulative way, like the ways of Lilith.

[Naga]

They say also that Zhakrin is the god of secrets.

[Herst]

Who is they?

Thor?

[Grindel]

There's definitely a difference between Zhakrinites and Lilithians even in your examples. A Zhakrinite does nothing random, he has a plan, and acts when he sees the need to do so. He believes that his actions are for the greater good and the survival of the whole world. A Lilithian may be or act out of everyone else's moral concepts, openly or in secret. This is on no way comparable, as Zhakrinites would follow a rather strict, although difficult and maybe problematic morale.

And there really is (or should be) more to Zhakrin than just going out and hunt people from the currently stronger side, as this is a typical view of someone who does not acknowledge anything than the very basic black&white, good vs. evil storyline, and who thinks that everything needs to fit into this.

[Herst]

There's definitely a difference between Zhakrinites and Lilithians even in your examples. A Zhakrinite does nothing random, he has a plan, and acts when he sees the need to do so.

So you are saying a Lilithin can not be cunning and calculating? How would they survive or accomplish their goals then? I see a Lilithin as creating chaos, but not having to be completely chaotic themselves. If so, the goblin and bugbear camps wouldn't exist, they would simply be roaming all over the world and trying to invade cities. Even the scum of Lilith has enough intelligence to know to this.

This is on no way comparable, as Zhakrinites would follow a rather strict, although difficult and maybe problematic morale.

Looks exactly the same to me. Following the morale of their god to accomplish their goals, even if it causes them problems. It just may be a different morale, but is their morale. Your statement actually seems comparable to every deity in the MUD.

And there really is (or should be) more to Zhakrin than just going out and hunt people from the currently stronger side, as this is a typical view of someone who does not acknowledge anything than the very basic black&white, good vs. evil storyline, and who thinks that everything needs to fit into this.

I couldn't agree more. In my examples, I just used EXACTLY what is displayed IC from every Zhakranite I have encountered. In fact, some of it is going on right now. Also, that stronger side always seemed to be the Crusaders for some reason. I remember someone who eventually turned Satho Priest doing this constantly, plotting on them. As well as another who decided to plot against them when the Asral clergy decided to fight them. Both of which, where the "Chosen of Zhakrin". Such a great example displayed there, don't you think? I do not see this as any way of trying to maintain balance. I see this as a sneaky way to manipulate events for your own personal benefit. Once again, I will say that this was done by "The Chosen One of Zhakrin"


With the way things are on the MUD, I do not see Zhakrin able to fit in and do as you are saying. The followers are just going to get themselves hated by everyone, unless they keep a Lilithin mentality.

Once again, just my opinion. It would be nice to be proved wrong on this subject. I just based it on everything I have witnessed personally. Maybe an example from you would be beneficial?

[luminier]

How about this. Zhakrin fanatics that are obcessed with Balance and will go to the extent of destroying everything but their order of zealots to maintain balance in the world. it's perfect.


new guild anyone? anyone?

[Herst]

Then there would be no balance. They would have total control.

Even attempting to try it, they would realize that if they were successful then they would throw the balance off. So they would not even try it.

[stilgar]

Hmm.. some serious problems here.. manipulation is nor sneaky nor bad at all, nor it belongs exclusively to Lillith.. saying this would be a little narrow minded for my taste Also.. Trickery, isn't treachery

Also.. mixing up characters played in the present and in the past with the history of Forostar would seem a dull mistake for me. Not to mention history as it is has nothing to do with history as we all know it.. rather its the collected and censured knowledge that is accessible for the present

To Herst:

As we all know it, it is more than disappointing for most players to see their efforts are ruined without code support. This topic started somehow like: thanks for those "evil chars" who stayed and went on with the struggle Imagine the same situation without ANY code support Would really be interested how many of them would have stayed. Sooner or later "aims cover the path" so they simply focus on the actions instead of the role they setted up for their character. What choices they have?
- Give up their plans in their original form, re-think them and try again
- Give up acting towards their plans for a shorter or longer period
- Give up their point of view and convert...

In current game terms I have to agree on the statement: a true active Zhakrinite char is almost unplayable.(maybe that is the reason I gave up playing mine since I wanted not to ruin the char by changing im into something he never meant to be.)

Yet.. I guess we all se the possibilities and difficulties lie in Zhakrinites. Still a question though if they'll ever have their code-supported place in the Mud