Quests for XP

[sun]

I noticed there were a few threads about this, but they seemed to be quite old...

I would like to bug a little bit on the quest-for-xp approach.. it is a very nice quest system with many interesting quests, however, I think the kind of reward you get for it is not very good.

For my character it would make no sense to solve most of the quests, yet it would be necessary to make him a competetive in combat. Even if his skills are not too high in combat, it feels like it makes no sense to practive them because I know that he can never get strong enough anyway. He is a moderately helpful guy, but not extremely, nor does he take a lot of risk. It would be fun to make a competetive character, but dragging myself through the quests in order to get the necessary xp-points does not feel very consistent with the character background.

And with this in mind, Sun is not a very extraordinary character, he is rather a good stereotype elf, in fact. But for an evil-type character or anything a little bit more exotic, it can make even less sense.

It feels like something that should be an entertaining optional thing that gives some kind of temporary reward like gold coins/reputation etc, but not XP. Considering the importance of combat in Geas, you simply need these XP points.

And with difficulties to solve this problem, less characters will get their stats up at a competetive level, resulting in less interesting PvP battles.

I would like to ask you all what you think about this? Or should I just "close my eyes and do the quests"..? I feel like I don't really have any options here..

PS. Sorry for the lengthy note.

[vurdijak]

My gut tells me that a char. who never did a single quest could still be effective in combat, but I see your point. Maybe the new continent will
provide more opportunities for experience earning for newer characters that could counterbalance the effects of removing XP from quests.

Even if there was not experience for finding that little halflings book, I would still do it since he pays so nicely.

[Delia]

You can still get an 'effective' character without doing most/any of the quests. Skills rule over stats in combat(in everything else too actually), big time. You will also develop those stats by improving skills also. Sure the one doing all the quests has an edge, but IMO it is not that big. Sure there is a said difference between 'weak' and 'ultimate' strength but for example a full level gap affects little. It is more like an ego-boost.

[sun]

Well, I would not be that interested in just becoming decently "effective". A guy with more stats has better chances... and stats are not unimportant, they are rather quite decisive. Yes, skills are more important but hardly to the extent where a guy who got 10 mils of quest XP has a chance against someone who has 0.3 mil.. which is pretty much the case here, because the most effective guys have done nearly all quests.

Even doing only half of the available quests, the guy with all quests still do much better. Maybe at 90% of the other's quest points it starts becoming less of a factor and more than chance, but it would be noticable.

So, if you mean against orcs or goblins, sure. Against other players, not a chance.

[Valtiel]

Even in PvP skills vastly outweigh stats. For instance, doing almost every quest in the game doesn't exactly make you god. In fact, it doesn't do much at all other than making your character slightly stronger and slightly faster/smart/fatter/whatever you put points into the most.

For example, I would much rather take 90-100 armor skill and 90-100 defense skill than the 2 full levels of my character going from very far from flimsy as hell to very far from sturdy that quests would give to me. And in getting those skills to 100 you would probably end with more constitution than you would doing all those quests anyways. Quests are a fun way to pass the time when you're bored. But they don't really give anyone an unfair advantage over other people. The best way to be good at combat is to choose an armor type, choose a weapon type, and just... use them. Try aiming and protecting different areas. Actually use an ability you enjoy using. The great thing about geas is that you don't have to do the same thing as everyone else to be good in the game. Get your weapon and combat skills up and you'll notice a massive difference. Get your stats up and watch your character fumble hopelessly against enemies you appraise as "would die if you fought him."

[sun]

Even in PvP skills vastly outweigh stats. For instance, doing almost every quest in the game doesn't exactly make you god. In fact, it doesn't do much at all other than making your character slightly stronger and slightly faster/smart/fatter/whatever you put points into the most.

Okay, that is not even close to true. Doing every quest in the game makes you alot than "slightly stronger".

For example, I would much rather take 90-100 armor skill and 90-100 defense skill than the 2 full levels of my character going from very far from flimsy as hell to very far from sturdy that quests would give to me. And in getting those skills to 100 you would probably end with more constitution than you would doing all those quests anyways.

And that doesn't really matter, because being a competative PvP characters is that everyone already has their skills at 90-100. The part that is left is stats and the diversity of the skills and general tactics (but the latter ones are at least interesting factors).

Quests are a fun way to pass the time when you're bored. But they don't really give anyone an unfair advantage over other people.

I personally am quite bored of them, having done the quests previously with a dozen other characters. Not that they are bad, it's just get repetetive since I know more or less each of them by heart.. Starting a new character means you have to re-do all quests if you want to be competetive, even though it might be realistic to require each character to do it..

[luminier]

i basically use stats to roleplay how my character would look and act. if hes epic str well then hes clearly looking pretty ripped. if he has ultimate intelligence, then he speaks well and clearly, and thinks less of others with lower intelligence. dexterity and agility are harder to roleplay unless your like a thief or something. but ya. i agree with Master Delia wholeheartedly.

[gojin]

Hmmmmm... many different issues brought up in this thread.

Firstly, I agree with Sun that stats are vital for PVP. From experience Ive noted that if skills are somewhat equal but I am 1 level weaker(far from ult --> far from imm) specials are not nearly as effective and overall you will lose a 1v1 fight.

Secondly, I like the quests. I remember them being fun and most all of them fit well with my chars rp, as most people tend to play heros I think they fit well with most chars rp. Whether or not they should give xp.. well, im not sure how I feel about that. At the moment the only positive I see to it is it gives power players another task they must do to become powerful. Seeing how easy it is for chars to improve skills now I like anything that makes them work for xp.

I suppose it comes down to how you like to play. Some people enjoy PVP so much that they will sacrifice rp to get a strong char faster. I think you would have more fun if you only did the quests that fit your char and not worry so much about how you will do PVP. There are alot of other ways to be 'competitive'. If it was your intention to make a char to participate in alot of PVP then, yeah, you'll have to grit and bear doing the quests. Its better than just making it easy to make a strong char. Its too easy to do that already anyways.

PO Goj

[Valtiel]

And that doesn't really matter, because being a competative PvP characters is that everyone already has their skills at 90-100. The part that is left is stats and the diversity of the skills and general tactics (but the latter ones are at least interesting factors).

Coming from someone who's out to kill everyone in the mud, you should see my skills and stats, you'd be surprised how low they are and yet I am still completely capable of handling myself in pvp. PvP isn't completely about numbers.

If it was then there'd be no point in playing this game at all, since we'd have no effect on the outcome no matter what choices we made in game.

[luminier]

ehhehe well back row, mood defend and miracles usually works well for most priests =P. im not bitter. I just wish our lances could reach back there.

[adanath]

PVP is not about numbers, but they certainly are important in many aspects. As far as Valtiel's reply, I haven't seen much pvp from him, so I don't know. However I do know that the difference between someone skilled who hasn't done the quests and skilled who has can be quite significant. It can affect your base ability to dodge, to parry, how hard you hit. Obviously if I gain over a full level in strength after doing quests I am going to hit quite a lot harder, just more often due to my high skill as well. Sathos can be an exception, for unlike any other character they can raise undeads to fight with them. So one whom is small in numbers can make up for it by having others to fight with them. Quests do make a big difference and you should make an effort to do them as they approach your character in game. Though the point that skills is greater than xp is incredibly valid, still by the time you get to be a decently sized character unless your skills are so spread out that you don't have any one skill of significance, you should be fairly well skilled by that time is well. So once again size becomes a decent indicator. Though there are those whom are a lot bigger than others, who are not as skilled in fighting despite them having many more skills overall, but because those skills are not in the appropriate areas the xp does not help nearly as much as the skills themselves.

[Valtiel]

As far as Valtiel's reply, I haven't seen much pvp from him, so I don't know.

Oh we've fought a couple of times, you may just not have known it was me.

[adanath]

You are crafty, I will give you that.

[luminier]

As I am sure any Crusader would. 1v1 I am convinced I could kill any Sathos.

[Olrane]

1v1 is a very different fight than most people, especially young Sathos, will choose to have...I remember twice Olrane did quite well 1v1 against Crusaders. It's those damned groups of you and make us weaklings always lose.

[adanath]

I wish to clarify some other things.

Valtiel,

I am glad you are a satho, and you are causing chaos, especially for someone with lower numbers as you say. Though I really don't think it is so easy for people that aren't sathos with such low numbers generally. They don't have some of the satho things that help out loners. It also frustrates me how good you are at running, as well as hitting and leaving. Though I suppose that in itself can be an art. I want to compliment you basically, and to say keep up the hard work, and then when you are ready..I want some 1v1 . Oh, and Chani..I have always highly enjoyed any time I got to interact with your character, be it with words or with a lance.

Quests I still contend are really worth the xp. I really believe they help you out a whole lot. Nowhere near as much as skills, but still it is like a shot of adrenalin. I think the reason I realize this more and more is because Adanath is simply a fighter, and not much else of anything..his fighting skills have all gotten to almost be maxed out with that which he uses regularly, and I do feel the xp helped him a lot. Though it seems nice to wait on quests a bit until you do find yourself a bit stuck on improves and then do one. Though I think these things can work themselves out if you really find the quests ic with each character, instead of just logging on and doing them all.

[Delmon]

Race makes huge strategical differences in pvp. For instance, a critical from an elf does not do nearly as much as from a tshahark of the same experience.

That creates interesting challenges... and of course being in a guild makes huge differences. Crusaders own with numbers, but they should... especially with their heavy armour, long lances that reach to the second row, and unicorns. I think sathos have advantages 1v1 with darkness and other spells and undead followers(ghouls are nasty in numbers) but I dont know for sure.

I would say the hardest pvp character to play in geas is a hunted character without a guild and cities. Theres really no chance for pvping evils outside sathos and the thieves.

Especially if you dont do quests.

Experience makes a big difference. Quests + stats are the best way to get experience, so quests are needed to beat the best if you have no guild buddies. Of course, quests are only absolutely needed for fighting huge characters like Adanath or Luminier . But stats will get you only 75% there... you need 25% questing, some luck and good weapons and armours.

[luminier]

heh iunno if Adanath or I would consider eachother 'huge'. but i guess we aren't bad compared to most ppl on the mud.

back to on topic. it's well known and even said in help files. skills outweight stats. BUT if you die lots and your stats are low when your skills are high there is a huge chance that your gonna get owned even though your skills are high and never go down (unless you don't use them)

basically skills do most of the battle, but be safe, max your stats out =P

[Abharsair]

Judging mostly by experience and years of observation, I have to say that a successful PvP fight depends roughly on 50% skills, 30% tactics, 10% luck and 10% stats. So while statistically the one with the better stats wins more often than not (assuming the used skills are equal), there is plenty of opportunity to out-smart someone stronger, or to just score a lucky hit. The reason most people think stats make a huge difference is because if physical stats differ a lot, then usually the skills differ a lot as well.

About the original topic, yes, getting rid of quest experience altogether is an interesting thought, and personally I find the idea enticing. The problem, however, is to replace the quest reward with appropriate and alluring alternative rewards, and to compensate the suddenly lost experience by upgrading other types of experience (e.g. increase skill experience) so that the average character would stay roughly the same size. And that's not really a trivial change.

[sun]

About the original topic, yes, getting rid of quest experience altogether is an interesting thought, and personally I find the idea enticing. The problem, however, is to replace the quest reward with appropriate and alluring alternative rewards, and to compensate the suddenly lost experience by upgrading other types of experience (e.g. increase skill experience) so that the average character would stay roughly the same size. And that's not really a trivial change.

I have a suggestion. Replacement quest rewards could be things like:
- gold coins (more than now)
- reputation (more/less than now)
but also for important quests some special items/artifacts. Say you solve a quest and you a "flaming sword" or a "magic ring". In order to prevent it from becoming a permanent advantage, you could set a time- or charge limit. I.e. it uses up charges or goes weak/puffs in 30 IRL days. This means solving a quest gives you a real advantage and a nice temporary boost, however it is not necessary for the long-term improvement of your character. Combined with gold and reputation, I think it should be possible to create incitaments to solve those quests still.

And for compensating suddenly lost quest experience, I would suggest to let players re-distribute their quest Xp into the equivalent skill points. This could be a "one time thing" accessible in the OOC area or similiar. In this way, no one will lose what they built up and also as a bonus get to choose some better abilities.